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War in Afghanistan (Discussion)

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How is the Afgan military this bad that they get overrun so quickly?
Probably most of them are Taliban, they've infiltrated the entire military and just waited for their real commanders to show up.
So they switch the sides immediatly and use all their weapons and equipment against the government.
 
How could the state department and military advisers not seen them caving so quickly. It was stupid to leave the embassy in place after the troop pullout.
hopefully we don’t end up with another hostage situation at a embassy.
I’ll be the first to admit I didn’t see this failure happening when we invaded. Twenty years ago I hadn’t considered the difficulty in building a nation state in a region dominated by tribal loyalties. It should have been obvious to everyone a decade ago.
played like a violin again!
 
Regardless if they are Taliban or Afghan forces, they all hate the west. Now they will have equipment and weapons to use for decades. Vietnam anyone? The veteran community is outraged and this is sparking a lot of hatred CONUS towards the white house.
 
How is the Afgan military this bad that they get overrun so quickly?
Boils down to physical geography. Afgan military or country isn't capable of fighting and repressing the Taliban nationwide, to many obstacles land wise.

Even with us there it was still a problem of sorts with repression of the Taliban. But bottom line we all know one way or another that they where never capable of self independence.

If they where able to be independent in anyway we would of been gone a long time ago and the Taliban would be in the history book.
 
How is the Afgan military this bad that they get overrun so quickly?
The Taliban has a vision. It's a dystopian hellscape, but it's something. The Afghan regime isn't based on anything at all, which is why it didn't exist until we destroyed their opposition with overwhelming force.
The real mistake here is in thinking we can base a relationship with whoever/whatever remains in power on something other than self interest and deterrence. We won't get anything of positive value out of Afghanistan. They can't and won't participate in a world that we recognize and value as a contributor. So you have to settle for second best, which is simply using force and the threat of force to prevent them from attacking us.
 
We could go back to propping up strong men. It works and is more culturally applicable to the region. But it’s too distasteful for Americans to support.

The problem i think is there not enough Afghans who have a national identity. Thus they have no national vision. nothing to fight for.
 
We could go back to propping up strong men. It works and is more culturally applicable to the region. But it’s too distasteful for Americans to support.

The problem i think is there not enough Afghans who have a national identity. Thus they have no national vision. nothing to fight for.
More of the inability to defend such terrains I.E montains & deserts.

Though military aka hard power is different than cultural or national identity aka soft power.

It's not just one issue,.. its many that keep Afghanistan a fractured nation. Though the biggest obstacle is the land itself.

In a sense this is quite literally Vietnam 2.0... Land is a issue, a enemy who is well trained in local terrain, lack of any central response/authority by any all local/national level, lack of US appetite for war, and a withdrawal where the foe takes almost everything back.

@Everyone If those points don't bring back memories you obviously where not around for the Vietnam war...... Difference is the Taliban are Chinese in this version.
 
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After Herat, Kandahar falls to Taliban; US, Britain rush troops to Afghanistan to evacuate nationals​

The Taliban seized more major cities yesterday as they raced to take full control of Afghanistan and inched closer to Kabul, with the United States and Britain deploying thousands of troops to evacuate their citizens from the capital.
The evacuation orders came as the Taliban took control of Kandahar -- the nation's second-biggest city -- in the insurgency's heartland, leaving only Kabul and pockets of other territories.
https://www.firstpost.com/world/aft...fghanistan-to-evacuate-nationals-9883381.html
Nation building has to happen from the inside, not from the outside, the strongest tribal power overruns the weaker and establishes a rule whose culture is forcibly imposed on the others as the national code until everyone identifies with it naturally..
 
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Nation building has to happen from the inside, not from the outside, the strongest tribal power overruns the weaker and establishes a rule whose culture is forcibly imposed on the others as the national code until everyone identifies with it naturally..
Sadly that strongest group seems to be the Tally. And their not really a completely indigenous group to Afghanistan. A lot of ISIS squirters probably ended up there. There are so many jihad groups, Sunni Shia Bath Palestinian Wahhabi Chechen. The cause doesn’t seem to matter as long as there is a fight to be had.
 
Sadly that strongest group seems to be the Tally. And their not really a completely indigenous group to Afghanistan. A lot of ISIS squirters probably ended up there. There are so many jihad groups, Sunni Shia Bath Palestinian Wahhabi Chechen. The cause doesn’t seem to matter as long as there is a fight to be had.
The irony is that the US had a big hand in helping in the establishment of the Taliban Pashtuns as a formidable fighting force to resist the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. https://www-pub.naz.edu/~aamghar6/History of the Taliban.htm
 
Twenty years of death and casualties and for what? Didn't the US learn anything from Russia in Afghanistan? Once Bin laden was found and killed that should have been the end of America's involvement. There is nothing in that Hell-hole dessert worth fighting for. Let them fight it out. If things go sour and anyone gets a whiff of a terrorist attack, or one happens, use missiles to bomb the crap out of their HQs, equipment, bases, factories, and infrastructure. Keep doing that and keep them in the stone ages. There was no need to send troops on the ground in that godforsaken dust bag.

The carrot and stick was a mistake. Now everyone knows. Let the Afghanistan eat each other and keep them contained there.

Anyway, thank you troops, dignitaries, and contractors for your time, your effort and your sacrifice. You tried.
 
I suspect they have now, they are leaving, outlasted by the same Taliban resistance that caused the Russians to leave.
Russia and China=Pakistan must have supported them this time, like the U.S. did in the past.
Just counter versa. But after the U.S. is gone I don't see the Taliban surviving for long, unless the U.S. is arming them against Russia/China.
But these infinite repetition will end soon.
I expect Russia will vacuum bomb the Taliban as soon as they become useless or an obstacle to them.
Just like what they did in Syria.
Almost as strong as a nuke, not even Taliban in bunkers/caves can survive this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YegxUegrI_4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C9f8Ff8M6E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beypJtvJ1v0
Scorched Earth.
 
More of the inability to defend such terrains I.E montains & deserts.

Though military aka hard power is different than cultural or national identity aka soft power.

It's not just one issue,.. its many that keep Afghanistan a fractured nation. Though the biggest obstacle is the land itself.

In a sense this is quite literally Vietnam 2.0... Land is a issue, a enemy who is well trained in local terrain, lack of any central response/authority by any all local/national level, lack of US appetite for war, and a withdrawal where the foe takes almost everything back.

@Everyone If those points don't bring back memories you obviously where not around for the Vietnam war...... Difference is the Taliban are Chinese in this version.
Much truth here.
 
Russia and China=Pakistan must have supported them this time, like the U.S. did in the past.
Just counter versa. But after the U.S. is gone I don't see the Taliban surviving for long, unless the U.S. is arming them against Russia/China.
But these infinite repetition will end soon.
I expect Russia will vacuum bomb the Taliban as soon as they become useless or an obstacle to them.
Just like what they did in Syria.
Almost as strong as a nuke, not even Taliban in bunkers/caves can survive this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YegxUegrI_4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C9f8Ff8M6E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beypJtvJ1v0
Scorched Earth.
We used thermobarics on ISIS in Afghanistan. Their still there.
What we forget. A Nation may collapse but a resistance never truly collapses short of genocide.
If Afghanistan chooses to tolerate the Taliban and sharia law then more power to them.
 
It is often inconceivable to people in our part of the world that sometimes people don't really want liberal secular Western democracy. Maybe that's because they don't know what's really best, maybe that's because they have other values. But at the end of the day it doesn't really matter. The Taliban is more motivated and more directed, which leaves you with nothing more than external support as the thing that keeps them out.

Here's a parallel that struck me the other day. Here in America, we know that people in abusive relationships are very often unable or unwilling to leave. The idea of a world without that structure is very scary and they will often choose incredible suffering over what's behind door number two (which is often also suffering caused by the abuser). So here in America, a place with so many resources and so many options, we have tons of people who actively choose not to leave. Why wouldn't that be true in Afghanistan? Take it from me, they're often very sincere about their beliefs that he's changing, he's different now, it's not too bad, he does great things. Now apply that to a world where the baseline level of suffering is so much higher. It is very easy to see how people are passively accepting or even moderately supportive of the Taliban.

One of the summary comments in a story linked on this thread was also pretty striking. The Biden administration was apparently under the belief that they could "secure rights for Afghan women" on the way out the door. Leaving politics aside, whoever you voted for......I mean, what? You really think you're going to hammer out some sort of solution to gender stuff when you don't even think you've solved that problem in America? And that this solution will be recognized and respected in a world where force is currently determining who is in charge? With a mentality like that, there's no question about it: we should leave, and now, because we never had a chance.
 

The quote I was thinking of came from this piece and is as follows: "The working assumption in Biden’s inner circle had been that Kabul could hold for the short term, allowing the U.S. to stay diplomatically engaged and help Afghan women secure their rights beyond the U.S. withdrawal."
 
We used thermobarics on ISIS in Afghanistan. Their still there.
What we forget. A Nation may collapse but a resistance never truly collapses short of genocide.
There was no ISIS left where this bomb has detonated.
If too many surrender to the Taliban or pick their side then there no other choice left then to leave Afghanistan.
But it still leaves many (woman) behind that doesn't want this to happen.
The big questions is if western democratic leaders can accept the crimes against them and close their eyes. 😌
And shut up 🤐 and forget about Afghanistan forever. Probably they aren't dead cold enough.💀
 

The quote I was thinking of came from this piece and is as follows: "The working assumption in Biden’s inner circle had been that Kabul could hold for the short term, allowing the U.S. to stay diplomatically engaged and help Afghan women secure their rights beyond the U.S. withdrawal."
Because we say it’s a good thing, just trust us, give it a try. Pollyanna thinking
 
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