Mandating fallout shelters (Split from COVID-19 March, 2021)

DarkNoon

Power Poster
Sweden or Switzerland that mandates all new housing have fallout shelters?
Its easy to implement such things when your population is less than 9 million.

To put that in perspective you can fit every single soul in Switzerland into New York City which is also just shy of 9 million.

So yea its not crazy for the Swiss to order its very very very small populis to build fallout shelter in all new properties.
 

RiffRaff

Deputy Director
Staff member
Its easy to implement such things when your population is less than 9 million.

To put that in perspective you can fit every single soul in Switzerland into New York City which is also just shy of 9 million.

So yea its not crazy for the Swiss to order its very very very small populis to build fallout shelter in all new properties.
Actually, it's no different than mandating asbestos can no longer be used in construction. Buildings constructed before the ban are grandfathered in, but everything built after that date has to comply. Fallout shelters would be the same.
 

DarkNoon

Power Poster
Actually, it's no different than mandating asbestos can no longer be used in construction. Buildings constructed before the ban are grandfathered in, but everything built after that date has to comply. Fallout shelters would be the same.
That is what I meant
to build fallout shelter in all new properties.
But furthers my point, for a nation so small that is in the western world, its more than cost effective.
 

DEFCON Warning System

Director
Staff member
for a nation so small that is in the western world, its more than cost effective.
I don't see the logic. How is it more cost effective for a small nation than it would be for a large one? Especially if we're only mandating them for new housing.

Okay, this is an interesting question, but is off topic from the thread. Let me split this off, as I think it bears discussion.
 

CreepyMonkey

Active member
I don't see the logic. How is it more cost effective for a small nation than it would be for a large one? Especially if we're only mandating them for new housing.
I agree. A mandate is a mandate. We implement new safety features in construction of buildings when it is called for. Earthquake retrofitting comes to mind. I'd be interested to hear why this might be different.
 
At the risk of sounding extreme I also believe that children should be taught survival skills and preparation for NBC attack/accident in school.

Food preparation, food storage safety, halving of gamma radiation, protection from alpha and beta rays, the PF of certain materials, the building of emergency underground shelters/trenches, the effects of gamma radiation on the body, the psychology of it all, everything thats in Nuclear War Survival Skills.

All the important stuff.

I will say I take this matter seriously enough to include it in my families emergency planning drills and education activities.
 

DarkNoon

Power Poster
Single-family housing completions in January 2020 were at a rate of 1,036,000 in the US. Underground shelters are made from cast-in-place reinforced concrete. The prices range anywhere from $600 to $3,000 per square foot.

Number of houses made in 2019 for Sweden is 55,659. I mean IDK where the hell your math is coming from guys but it would cost the US hands down WAY WAY WAY WAY more even if you compare GDPs ect.
 
I don't understand why it would matter how many new houses are built in a year. It's not like the government is the one building the shelters in this scenario.. And for the record, a shelter does not necessarily have to be "cast in place reinforced concrete" If you can afford a DOD quality shelter, then i would assume the cost would be pocket change to you. Odds are more likely, the common homeowner (if he/she was faced with a code requirement for a shelter) would install something like an Atlas shelter.
 
I was going to bring up the Atlas shelter. Another thought is: when you look at the annual military spending, wouldn't taking some of those hundreds of billions and redirecting it to some kind of tax rebate for those who have to foot the bill of a shelter make sense, militarily?

Isn't our population critical to the future of our nation? Aren't our children?

Consider how much money we send to foreign countries!
 

DEFCON Warning System

Director
Staff member
I was going to bring up the Atlas shelter. Another thought is: when you look at the annual military spending, wouldn't taking some of those hundreds of billions and redirecting it to some kind of tax rebate for those who have to foot the bill of a shelter make sense, militarily?
According to homeadvisor.com, the cost of building a fallout shelter is 37K to 65.5K. I assume that is for a pretty hardcore fallout shelter.

There are currently 95 million single family homes in the US. (This stat seems to depend on who you ask.)

Taking the low estimate, it would cost 3 trillion, 325 billion dollars to outfit each home with a fallout shelter.

In 2021, the U.S. defense budget was 705.4 billion dollars.
 
I'm afraid further discussion on the financial side of this thought exercise will lead into politics.

But to me, even if it cost 10 trillion it would be worth it. Considering we will probably never pay our current debt and money printing is economic policy...
 
Let's say for example global thermonuclear war breaks out in the next year. Currencies collapse, global trade halts, you can imagine how bad it would be.

If that is even a possibility, even within the next 10 or 20 years. 10 trillion in worthless fiat currency backed only by the might of the military would be a good thing to do, IF you wanted your people to be able to survive.
 

DarkNoon

Power Poster
I don't understand why it would matter how many new houses are built in a year. It's not like the government is the one building the shelters in this scenario
Yes the government would foot the bill one way or another. They are not just going to add 5-20k to each house on the market over a fallout shelter. One way or another through taxes, rebate, or stimulus the government will pay for a mandate for shelters to be built in all new houses.

No one can really contest statistically, compare, or factually disprove it would cost the US government hands down way way way more than any EU country (Where talking about the Western world here...)

I AM NOT TRYING TO SAY WEATHER ITS RIGHT OR WRONG. Its obviously the right move to make weather your a small EU country or the US of A.
I AM JUST making the simple statement that it would cost hands down far far far more to the US to implement such a building ordinance than a EU country. OF course its the right thing to do!

(If the country can't agree on a simple stimulus bill to help the people and economic HOW THE HELL you think the US is gonna pass something like this? BE REAL.)
 
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DEFCON Warning System

Director
Staff member
It could be a lot cheaper if, instead of retrofitting already-constructed houses, the US just mandates that all new SFHs have a fallout shelter.

Of course, what do you do about already-built houses? Well, we can assume that some won't be interested in having a fallout shelter built. We can also assume that some houses are not capable of having a fallout shelter installed because the property is too small.

We can also assume that not every fallout shelter is going to cost 37 thousand dollars. A room can be converted to a fallout shelter cheaper than that. For example, my den in my basement would make a great fallout shelter if it was retrofitted properly.
 

DEFCON Warning System

Director
Staff member
I have persistently said "new houses" not old throughout this thread. It would BE crazy to do that to ALL houses.
I brought it up because the numbers I cited were for all houses. It's impossible to know the cost for new housing since that number is variable.

But let's take a guess.

In 2021, there is estimated to be one million SFHs started.

At 37K per house for a fallout shelter, that is an easy-to-calculate 37 billion dollars for fallout shelter construction.
 
This common core math is giving me a head ache.. For the record, if the us mandated fallout shelters, it would cost the "new home owner" $3,000.00 more than it would cost the guy in Switzerland based on the exchange rate as of 11march 2021 1314hrs. (assuming the low end cost from Defcon Warning System's post.) on a $200,000.00 home this seems like a drop in the bucket to me..
 
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