PRC University Dean: PRC "Prepared for Anything," "No One Can Stop It," "Has Enough Power"

[apollonights]

[/quote]

Interesting notion. You seem to base your assessment on that resistance would deminish once the "regime" has been decapitated.[/quote]
No the opposite actually. I think that if the United States had to occupy North Korea with only the U.S. military and no help from Allied forces the occupation would be brutal FOR the United States and politically unpopular. For one North Korea has a population of 25 million people. According to the U.S. Army's metrics for peacekeeping you need 1 military member per 50 civilians. That means you need an occupation force of 500K. The U.S. military's upper limit is around 200K. Assuming just 1 percent of North Korea's population actively resists the United States after the Korean government collapses you are looking at 250K insurgents with weapon caches, military training, some with special operations training, munitions stashes etc.

Now please do note that I am not underestimating North Korea. Their cyber attacks and sleep cells within the United States would sow havoc. The world would go into an economic depression. South Korea would be largely irradiated and chemically exposed, reduced to a third world nation. Japan would be struck with nuclear weapons and sleeper cells as well reducing its economy in the long run and maybe resulting in the abandonment of whole sections of cities like Kyoto and Tokyo.

Furthermore the North would release their biological program which could kill hundreds of millions of people depending on how advanced it is (or even more if they've created designer diseases). Depending on how many nuclear weapons are used the O-Zone layer would be weakened and we could see a global famine as well.

So no I'm not underestimating the North Koreans, but if we were to craft a scenario in which North Korea was invaded by the United States and do not simulate for the effects of WMD the United States would take the country within three months. The occupation would be hell on earth.

 

[Doc]

No the opposite actually. I think that if the United States had to occupy North Korea with only the U.S. military and no help from Allied forces the occupation would be brutal FOR the United States.

I understood that was what you were thinking. But again, if the North Koreans are actual communists, you will be faced with the German eastern-front problem times 1000. There would be no occupation as there would be no civilians. 25 million. Not 250 k.

There could be an invasion and an eradication though, as with the Red army in Preussia. You could kill every last one of them. Do you have enough ammo for that?

America has faced this exact problem once before, not far from Korea. It was solved with WMDs.

 

[Navarro]

I think that if the United States had to occupy North Korea with only the U.S. military and no help from Allied forces the occupation would be brutal FOR the United States and politically unpopular.

To invade and occupy DPRK would be the single most audacious military undertaking since the world wars. DPRK has immense ground defense and counter-attack capabilities. DPRK is prepared to sabotage every path, producing a land of low maneuverability and choke points. DPRK's artillery shells will blacken the sky, and every kilometer of terrain gained will be met with stiff resistance or ambush. DPRK anti-air, electronic warfare, coastal artillery, large submarine force, and aid from the Russians and Chinese will make what was already a meat grinder for America into a practically impossible situation. Where, DPRK's artillery, conventional missiles and nuclear weapons will cleanse the DMZ and proximity to it of USA/ROK defenses, annihilate a great proportion of USA/ROK defenses elsewhere on the peninsula, while DPRK SPECOPS will invade ROK by tunnel and sea, going under and around the DMZ, followed by massive conventional forces screaming across the DMZ into ROK, reuniting Korea under DPRK's flag and occupying the population centers. USA will be hard-pressed to liberate its allies in the south, which are under occupation by significant DPRK forces, without nuking those cities, thus nuking those allies in need of liberation.

One should in fact hope the war will proceed approximately along those lines, because if it doesn't, then Russia and China will be forced to directly intervene on DPRK's behalf. They will not allow DPRK to fall. It will be world war, and such a war is unlikely to be contained on the peninsula. There can be no invasion and occupation of DPRK.

 

[Doc]

...then Russia and China will be forced to directly intervene on DPRK's behalf. They will not allow DPRK to fall.

Elaborate on this level of certainty?

 

[Navarro]

...then Russia and China will be forced to directly intervene on DPRK's behalf. They will not allow DPRK to fall.

Elaborate on this level of certainty?

Both PRC/RF intervened in the Korean War (1950-1953). Both paid for DPRK with blood. Both argue and reiterate that attacking DPRK is unacceptable. Both have reaffirmed this positon via bomber activity. PRC/RF are aligned within the same order, and DPRK is an associate of that order. DPRK is powerful and increasing in power, where that power is needed for contending with the current imbalance of power. The western order continues to expand, consuming neutral nations and nations friendly to the eastern order. As this containment proceeds, PRC/RF will become increasingly immobilized and subject to western dominance.

A incomplete list of nations added to, forcefully retained among, or which are in the process of being added to the western order's collection since the conclusion of CW1: Czech, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Croatia, Iraq, Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Georgia, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Ukraine, Yemen, Romania, Belarus, Iran, North Korea. That's twenty-eight countries. There are less than two-hundred recognized countries in the world. That's more than one-eighth of the world's nations, in less than twenty years.

The western order was emboldened by largely eradicating communism and collapsing USSR. Unless the rate of the western order's progress can be significantly slowed, it could achieve unchallengeable dominance within a century. PRC/RF are unlikely to perceive themselves as prepared for to engage the western order in total war at this time. They would likely prefer DPRK discontinue its nuclear and missile programs as well as its media threats so as to not provide USA with justification for attack, as USA may calculate that PRC/RF will not intervene meaningfully if at all, or that the losses which USA would suffer would be acceptable. PRC/RF may also prefer that DPRK/USA normalize relations while DPRK retains its nuclear and missile programs. However, PRC/RF may genuinely prefer DPRK discontinue those programs if USA were to accept them, out of concern that DPRK might suddenly initiate the next world war, without even consulting PRC/RF.

PRC/RF would likely tolerate a limited strike against DPRK, but no decapitation, severe destabilization or invasion. If USA to were to collapse DPRK, then USA will be further emboldened. Where, the present buffer no longer exists and so strong western order forces would now be present along PRC/RF's eastern borders. Where, a strong associate of the Eastern order will now be destroyed. Where, DPRK could have made for an excellent distraction in the event of a future world war. With USA's audacity intensified, the rate at which additional nations are added to the western order's collection will likely increase. More emboldened, it will threaten PRC/RF increasingly directly. Mind you, USA is currently directly challenging PRC in SCS, and USA recently directly bombed a joint Syrian-Russian base. Where, two decades ago NATO field commanders refused orders from NATO Commander General Wesley Clark instructing them to block a Russian runway in Kosovo during the Pristina Airport Incident. One responded "I'm not going to start the third world war for you." USA/NATO fired Clark, for attempting to aggressively block access to a Russian airbase. Now USA has bombed a Russian airbase.

It is greatly in PRC/RF's interest to ensure the survival of DPRK, to include direct intervention if necessary. It's also greatly in PRC/RF's interest to achieve a decisive defeat against USA in order to collapse its confidence, to make it again wary, to curb its aggression, to slow its rate of expansion, and to contain and control its behavior. PRC/RF must mirror USA but exaggerate the projected image, intimidating it by use of a more dramatic variant of its own military doctrine: shock and awe. Nuclear weapons don't have to be employed. The conflict between PRC/RF doesn't have to expand outside of Korea. RF can ground its aircraft in Syria. RF Tu-95's can maintain station between RF and USA but don't have to approach USA airspace. PRC and Iran can patrol near shipping lanes but don't have to close shipping. PRC/RF can activate A2/AD but don't have to engage. Thus, clearly signaling that it's not yet committed to total war, and the conflict can be contained to within Korea. ROK can even be conquered, primarily at cost to DPRK. If desired or USA escalation warrants it, RF can attempt to clear Syrian airspace and to conquer Ukraine, while PRC can attempt to clear SCS, or even eradicate USA Pacific bases.

What PRC/RF can't do, is allow USA to conquer or greatly destabilize DPRK. USA may be permitted to attack DPRK in a limited fashion as it has done in Syria, but it would not and could not be allowed to crush DPRK.

 

[Yingyang]

Well put,agreed 110%

 

[Doc]

Thank you, sir.

 

[rudemarine]

And I take issue with your implication that if I am not laughing along with Trump and his supporters that I am not a patriot.

Interesting that you would say that. I always thought a core American value was opposition to power, not blind alligance to it. The same with difference of opinion. Maybe I have been romantizing the US?

That may have been true in the past.
You are romanticizing what America used to be and what it should be, but sadly is no longer.

As soon as the Constitutionally educated in this country get enough backing, D.C. will be taken down about 100 notches in its authoritarian boot on the neck of the every day American people. Foreign authority is given, The US or the majority of its people are never cool allowing any big country to bully its neighbors into submission. Screw Iran, what gives them authority over the Persian gulf or China's right to bully the whole of Asia and dam sure not Russia bringing back the Soviet Union.

The U.S. has kept the peace for the most part until 2001. We have not done much to keep China from Illegally stealing from its smaller neighbors and its high time someone did. Never mind from stealing every dam US or world patent, to then flooding the world with cheap crap that does not last. I would rather pay more for something that will last, not poison me and my family, was made by an American or someone I know was not working for slave wages.

 

[rudemarine]

...then Russia and China will be forced to directly intervene on DPRK's behalf. They will not allow DPRK to fall.

Elaborate on this level of certainty?

Where, two decades ago NATO field commanders refused orders from NATO Commander General Wesley Clark instructing them to block a Russian runway in Kosovo during the Pristina Airport Incident. One responded "I'm not going to start the third world war for you." USA/NATO fired Clark, for attempting to block access to a Russian airbase. Now USA has bombed a Russian airbase.

What PRC/RF can't do, is allow USA to conquer or greatly destabilize DPRK. USA may be permitted to attack DPRK in a limited fashion as it has done in Syria, but it would not and could not be allowed to crush DPRK.

Clark was fired for not doing a good job, keeping our forces ready for battle and refusing to keep blocking the small group of Russian BMPs into the airport when he knew Russia just wanted to be included in the say so, not our enemy. He did not want to start a huge war with a small and crippled Russia like Germany and Israel did, that is why they both started that whole mess.

Clark has been very outspoken since 2001 and not for any part of the war on terror past Afghanistan. I laugh at the fact you even think he would have been worried about six BMPs where he had tanks to make them quickly irrelevant if they caused a problem. He was following orders from above like every solider does. He did not get to be the commander of NATO by not following orders.

Our Apaches were crashing left and right among other major issues that made him look bad before the incident with the Russians but I blame Clinton and the Democrats more than anything, just like today when we cant even bring a Carrier strike group to Korean waters in any decent amount of time.

 

[rudemarine]

...then Russia and China will be forced to directly intervene on DPRK's behalf. They will not allow DPRK to fall.

Elaborate on this level of certainty?

A incomplete list of nations added to, forcefully retained among, or which are in the process of being added to the western order's collection since the conclusion of CW1: Czech, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Croatia, Iraq, Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Georgia, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Ukraine, Yemen, Romania, Belarus, Iran, North Korea. That's twenty-eight countries. There are less than two-hundred recognized countries in the world. That's more than one-eighth of the world's nations, in less than twenty years.

Hardly forced. Iraq is free to do pretty much what they want and has major Iranian influence today. Afghanistan is still a wild west and will never be taken from Pakistan. Syria is still in Russia's control. Not one of the European nations were forced at all, they ran to the west to get better lives. Do you think they liked the Soviet style food lines and the nasty Ghettos they were forced to live in, with their entire family for the most part?

I don't care what Russia or China would like, I care about the millions of lives that crazy ass dictators family has killed through starvation and torture. The sooner we stop him, the sooner the people can live a prosperous life like the south so we can eventually bring our men and women home, or kick in China's teeth while we are there, just for being jerks and trying to dominate the world with its slave wage army. If the US was not there, Japan would have already had to fight them for survival. If it was not for a lot of Russian nukes China would have stolen its oil fields already.

 

[Doc]

As soon as the Constitutionally educated in this country get enough backing, D.C. will be taken down about 100 notches in its authoritarian boot on the neck of the every day American people. Foreign authority is given, The US or the majority of its people are never cool allowing any big country to bully its neighbors into submission.

Glad to hear it! How long before you take a look at Saudi and the Federal Republic of "Germany"?

Never mind from stealing every dam US or world patent, to then flooding the world with cheap crap that does not last. I would rather pay more for something that will last, not poison me and my family, was made by an American or someone I know was not working for slave wages.

I'd still be buying chevy if it was made in Detroit. You need to have a look at who sold you out as well.

 

[rapidfire25]

Trump and every other Patriot in the U.S. and most of Europe will laugh at this thought. They, "China" have only just joined the world stage as an industrial and economic power less than 20 years ago, it is they who have to learn that you mess with and start treading on the old school boys territory long enough, your bound to get your teeth kicked in and your knees broke. This is China's future by growing too fast and acting as a bully to the rest of the world. Even Russia sees the light and turns on them in the end, joins with NATO in its war with China and their few Allies. The Dragon burns in the end and never comes back alive.

I disagree with your view on Russia. Many of the leaders are from the former soviet union and are hardline nationalist, they see the current neo liberal order as a beast allowed to flourish because of the fall of the USSR. If any thing they see it as proving that Russia needs to be confrontational and adversarial, to protect their national identity and regional interest. IF you picked up a copy of Whence the threat to peace from the 70s or 80s and read it its the same as current anti nato propaganda. Asides from tech getting smaller, and more powerful along with changing borders, and ideologies names. Nothing much has really changed since the cold wars

 

[rapidfire25]

...then Russia and China will be forced to directly intervene on DPRK's behalf. They will not allow DPRK to fall.

Elaborate on this level of certainty?

Both PRC/RF intervened in the Korean War (1950-1953). Both paid for DPRK with blood. Both argue and reiterate that attacking DPRK is unacceptable. Both have reaffirmed this positon via bomber activity. PRC/RF are aligned within the same order, and DPRK is an associate of that order. DPRK is powerful and increasing in power, where that power is needed for contending with the current imbalance of power. The western order continues to expand, consuming neutral nations and nations friendly to the eastern order. As this containment proceeds, PRC/RF will become increasingly immobilized and subject to western dominance.

A incomplete list of nations added to, forcefully retained among, or which are in the process of being added to the western order's collection since the conclusion of CW1: Czech, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Croatia, Iraq, Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Georgia, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Ukraine, Yemen, Romania, Belarus, Iran, North Korea. That's twenty-eight countries. There are less than two-hundred recognized countries in the world. That's more than one-eighth of the world's nations, in less than twenty years.

The western order was emboldened by largely eradicating communism and collapsing USSR. Unless the rate of the western order's progress can be significantly slowed, it could achieve unchallengeable dominance within a century. PRC/RF are unlikely to perceive themselves as prepared for to engage the western order in total war at this time. They would likely prefer DPRK discontinue its nuclear and missile programs as well as its media threats so as to not provide USA with justification for attack, as USA may calculate that PRC/RF will not intervene meaningfully if at all, or that the losses which USA would suffer would be acceptable. PRC/RF may also prefer that DPRK/USA normalize relations while DPRK retains its nuclear and missile programs. However, PRC/RF may genuinely prefer DPRK discontinue those programs if USA were to accept them, out of concern that DPRK might suddenly initiate the next world war, without even consulting PRC/RF.

PRC/RF would likely tolerate a limited strike against DPRK, but no decapitation, severe destabilization or invasion. If USA to were to collapse DPRK, then USA will be further emboldened. Where, the present buffer no longer exists and so strong western order forces would now be present along PRC/RF's eastern borders. Where, a strong associate of the Eastern order will now be destroyed. Where, DPRK could have made for an excellent distraction in the event of a future world war. With USA's audacity intensified, the rate at which additional nations are added to the western order's collection will likely increase. More emboldened, it will threaten PRC/RF increasingly directly. Mind you, USA is currently directly challenging PRC in SCS, and USA recently directly bombed a joint Syrian-Russian base. Where, two decades ago NATO field commanders refused orders from NATO Commander General Wesley Clark instructing them to block a Russian runway in Kosovo during the Pristina Airport Incident. One responded "I'm not going to start the third world war for you." USA/NATO fired Clark, for attempting to block access to a Russian airbase. Now USA has bombed a Russian airbase.

It is greatly in PRC/RF's interest to ensure the survival of DPRK, to include direct intervention if necessary. It's also greatly in PRC/RF's interest to achieve a decisive defeat against USA in order to collapse its confidence, to make it again wary, to curb its aggression, to slow its rate of expansion, and to contain and control its behavior. PRC/RF must mirror USA but exaggerate the projected image, intimidating it by use of a more dramatic variant of its own military doctrine: shock and awe. Nuclear weapons don't have to be employed. The conflict between PRC/RF doesn't have to expand outside of Korea. RF can ground its aircraft in Syria. RF Tu-95's can maintain station between RF and USA but don't have to approach USA airspace. PRC and Iran can patrol near shipping lanes but don't have to close shipping. PRC/RF can activate A2/AD but don't have to engage. Thus, clearly signaling that it's not yet committed to total war, and the conflict can be contained to within Korea. ROK can even be conquered, primarily at cost to DPRK. If desired or USA escalation warrants it, RF can attempt to clear Syrian airspace and to conquer Ukraine, while PRC can attempt to clear SCS, or even eradicate USA Pacific bases.

What PRC/RF can't do, is allow USA to conquer or greatly destabilize DPRK. USA may be permitted to attack DPRK in a limited fashion as it has done in Syria, but it would not and could not be allowed to crush DPRK.

Here's my question did we just flip the cold war and become the theoretical evil expanding empire... Much like communism was likened to the blob and ever expanding repugnant mass is that what we are now seen as... Man this is a little ironic for my liking that our old propaganda is essentially being used against us.. oh well once you use a technique anyone else can learn from it..

 

[Capstone]

Here's my question did we just flip the cold war and become the theoretical evil expanding empire... Much like communism was likened to the blob and ever expanding repugnant mass is that what we are now seen as... Man this is a little ironic for my liking that our old propaganda is essentially being used against us.. oh well once you use a technique anyone else can learn from it..

Well, Putin likes to portray himself as a defender of traditional values against Western decadence. I think Putin likely views himself as the katechon too. It makes for an interesting dynamic.

 

[Doc]

Not one of the European nations were forced at all, they ran to the west to get better lives.

Not true at all. I have intimate knowledge of East germany and nobody there wanted what they have now. But western operatives, bought, forced, infiltrated, murdered and even invaded DDR to set it up how the big companies wanted it. US operatives spearheded this. I know, because I was there to see it and even took part.

People I have met from other countries in eastern Europe, or who were operating there, say the same thing.

Do you think they liked the Soviet style food lines and the nasty Ghettos they were forced to live in, with their entire family for the most part?

The ghettos of the "free world" are far worse than those of the Warzawa-pact. Ask someone who has tried both.

 

[Navarro]

Here's my question did we just flip the cold war and become the theoretical evil expanding empire... Much like communism was likened to the blob and ever expanding repugnant mass is that what we are now seen as... Man this is a little ironic for my liking that our old propaganda is essentially being used against us.. oh well once you use a technique anyone else can learn from it..

If a child calls another child "fat," that's probably because it has recognized that the term "fat" invokes negative emotions in himself/herself. It would hurt his/her feelings to be called fat, and so the child is sadistically attempting to inflict harm on another child, choosing a term which he/she knows would be hurt his/her own feelings. Similarly, a person sees the opposing empire as a contradiction or "opposite" of their own empire. They are never the less both empires and they are in direct competition, so they're very similar. They're different "flavors" or different "brands" of the same, competing product type. Consequently, to know one's enemy, one need only know themselves. In essence, both empires are competing for world dominance. That was the nature of CW1 then, and it's the nature of CW2 today.

While western media presents the image of the Russians aiding forces in eastern Ukraine in its bid for dominance, it should be no surprise that eastern media presents the image of the Americans aiding forces in western Ukraine in its bid for dominance. The only victim is Ukraine, and it's victimized by Russia and America collectively. There are no "good guys" separated from "bad guys." Today America may be the greater aggressor, but that's only because America is winning, and it's thus on the offensive. If Russia was winning, the roles would be reversed. Russia would then be the greater aggressor. So, Russia isn't the victim, nor is America, nor will either ever be a victim any more than the losing sports team is being victimized by the winning team. They're competing in a bipolar environment. They are two predators competing for territory.

So it's not that "our old propaganda is essentially being used against us." Both have always utilized the same propaganda to describe one another. Americans have always been "aggressors" and "oppressive" to the Russians, and Russia has always been "aggressors" and "oppressive" to the Americans. They've always described one another in such a way. That description is an accurate representation of both flavors, though each brand attempts to associate the other with these negative things, rather than pointing to their common negativity.

 

[Capstone]

They've always described one another in such a way. That description is an accurate representation of both flavors, though each brand attempts to associate the other with these negative things, rather than pointing to their common negativity.

I'm not the great defender of the post-WW2 liberal world order, but there were significant differences between the futures offered by the Soviets and the Western democracies. So, I'm not sure it is accurate though too often it could be accurate when we fight foolish wars to bring democracy to peoples who don't want it. I can't believe I'm going to quote a scholar with whom I significantly disagree, but Ikenberry in the new issue of Foreign Affairs pretty much summed up the success of the West: "Compared with past orders—imperial and anarchic systems of various sorts, from the Greek and Chinese worlds of the classical era to the nineteenth-century European imperial system—the liberal order stands alone. Choose your metric. But in terms of wealth creation, the provision of physical security and economic stability, and the promotion of human rights and political protections, no other international order in history comes close. The liberal order may have its shortcomings—costly and ill-advised wars have been fought in its name, and vast economic and social injustices remain—but it has empowered people across the world who seek a better life within a relatively open and rules-based global system."