SHIFT: Putin Proposes Luhansk and Donetsk Remain Under Ukrainian Control

[ArmyATC]

Putin Changing Policy on Ukraine?

Russian President Vladimir Putin is pushing a proposal that would see the self-proclaimed republics of Luhansk and Donetsk remain under Ukrainian control. Leaders in the disputed regions have said they might be open to the idea provided conditions of the failing ceasefire are met by Ukraine. 

"This is a fundamental issue. I think this position should be viewed as a sound precondition for the start of substantial negotiations," said Putin, according to a transcript of the interview published by Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera and released by the Kremlin.

This would be a huge change in policy. Obviously this is a trial balloon being floated through an Italian newspaper, but at least it's an attempt (possibly) at a solution.

Putin has always talked of 'semi-autonomy' for these coastal Oblasts, but his approach seems to be shifting to pressuring the rebels into submitting to Kiev.

Very interesting. Give them enough rope to hang themselves? He needs the land bridge, and this is a ploy to get it, but what's the angle?

http://www.ibtimes.com/vladimir-putin-urges-donetsk-luhansk-remain-part-ukraine-1955758

 

[ArmyATC]

Here's the full interview. This is the most in-depth look at what Putins take on the whole situation in Ukraine is about. Very informative. This is now being posted at the official Kremlin site and is gaining momentum all over the net.

The first float was the whole 'Dont fear Russia', which is where this quote came from in this interview. The thing that stuck out to me: He says that in order for Europe to remain under US sphere, a boogeyman had to be created, and Iran wasn't big enough, so Russia was selected. Again overtones of the fallout of the ABMS treaty.

If true, and US foreign policy has adopted this stance, Europe will be forced to decide on whether to go along with this policy. Interesting. Are we witnessing a destabilization attempt of Europe? The next Middle East? Don't know, but it makes Nuland's "F**k the EU" statement noteworthy.

He seems to be pushing for formal pan Eurasian integration as a priority over the Russian policy in Ukraine. Apparently he has got his rebels in line and is now putting the ball in the West's court. But a lot of very good info on what all of us have been discussing.



http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/49629

 

[ArmyATC]

White House Position

The White House is reportedly considering new ways to discourage Russia from meddling in Europe, in what some officials are saying is an updated version to Cold War-era containment.

The Wall Street Journal reports the approach involves beefing up militaries of allies and potential partners and weeding out corrupt governments, which Russia could potentially exploit to gain more influence.

Administration officials also want to expand NATO’s reach to limit Moscow’s orbit. Although including Ukraine or Georgia in the organization remains off the table, the Pentagon would be open to consider the small Balkan country of Montenegro to solidify its ties with the West and to show that Russia does not have veto power over alliance expansion.

Weeding out corrupt governments? That's openly admitting to regime change on European countries that don't fall in line. Harsh stance indeed. Now Montenegro is next on the list? There's some serious issues that just dont make logical sense.

This kind of pressure is counterproductive, IMO.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/06/06/us-considering-harder-stance-on-russia-report-says/

 

[JohnStone]

It's a lie, just like the entire "World should not fear Russia" comment. Putin's trying to get the sanctions lifted, but it's only words. As we speak, rail cars full of tanks are approaching Ukraine according to witnesses in Ukraine and a video taken by one.

 

[AlbertGrand]

It's a lie, just like the entire "World should not fear Russia" comment. Putin's trying to get the sanctions lifted, but it's only words. As we speak, rail cars full of tanks are approaching Ukraine according to witnesses in Ukraine and a video taken by one.

I don't understand why MSM is not looking more closely at this. Maybe Poroshenko fatigue has set in, journalists think "oh, it's only Porky, he's always saying things like this." Yet columns of tanks with markings wiped out (so 'rebel tanks' it is then) are being shown in Youtube videos and photos being shared on Twitter by people near the Ukrainian border. Something is going on.

 

[AlbertGrand]

It's a lie, just like the entire "World should not fear Russia" comment. Putin's trying to get the sanctions lifted, but it's only words. As we speak, rail cars full of tanks are approaching Ukraine according to witnesses in Ukraine and a video taken by one.

I don't understand why MSM is not looking more closely at this. Maybe Poroshenko fatigue has set in, journalists think "oh, it's only Porky, he's always saying things like this." Yet columns of tanks with markings wiped out (so 'rebel tanks' it is then) are being shown in Youtube videos and photos being shared on Twitter by people near the Ukrainian border. Something is going on.

They've barely taken notice of it in the first place. People getting sex change operations are more important.

I finally did hear a report on the Ukraine crisis on NPR, late yesterday afternoon. It was buried in the middle of the newscast.

I'm in Britain, it's our continent, so in theory, the BBC should be all over this. But there's nothing about the Russian build-up at all. It's all about FIFA and the World Cups and the proposed EU referendum.

 

[ArmyATC]

I'm in Britain, it's our continent, so in theory, the BBC should be all over this. But there's nothing about the Russian build-up at all. It's all about FIFA and the World Cups and the proposed EU referendum.

I don't trust the lot of them. But since we seem all to be in agreement that neither NATO nor Russia really want a war, the posturing must be due to Kiev. Obviously, the West has lost control of Poro. He comes up for re election in October and his numbers are in the toilet..

He has nothing to lose. What's that saying, 'when someone has nothing to lose, they lose it..

The MSM just will regurgitate and provocate to provide cover if and when this goes to hell in a hand basket. But I already posted the report of the Ukranian General that ADMITTED he violates Minks II with heavy artillery (anything goes), so I'm pretty sure the rebels, drunkards and all, are just praying they don't need those Russian tanks.

But Puty won't allow a slaughter, and the West needs to neutralize Poro before he drags us all into his little maniacal power trip..

 

[AlbertGrand]

I don't trust the lot of them. But since we seem all to be in agreement that neither NATO nor Russia really want a war, the posturing must be due to Kiev. Obviously, the West has lost control of Poro. He comes up for re election in October and his numbers are in the toilet..

He has nothing to lose. What's that saying, 'when someone has nothing to lose, they lose it..

The MSM just will regurgitate and provocate to provide cover if and when this goes to hell in a hand basket. But I already posted the report of the Ukranian General that ADMITTED he violates Minks II with heavy artillery (anything goes), so I'm pretty sure the rebels, drunkards and all, are just praying they don't need those Russian tanks.

But Puty won't allow a slaughter, and the West needs to neutralize Poro before he drags us all into his little maniacal power trip..

I'm not sure Poroshenko doesn't still think there are those in the US who have his back, enabling him to make statements such as this...

http://www.rferl.org/content/poroshenko-ukraine-will-do-everything-retake-crimea/27055170.html

Speaking at a news conference on June 5, a day after warning of a "colossal threat" of the resumption of full-scale fighting with Russian-backed rebels in his annual state-of-the-nation address, Poroshenko said that "every day and every moment, we will do everything to return Crimea to Ukraine."

When Kerry met Putin, Crimea wasn't even discussed, and neither was it at Minsk. There's been a lot of rubbish talked about why all this Ukraine business happened, and who really initiated it - was it a 'fascist coup' organised by the US? Whether it was or not, that in itself wasn't the start - it was Ukraine's decision to unilaterally scrap the recently extended Russian lease on the Sevastopol base. Putin saw several steps ahead that this would end up as a NATO base, and went into action. So if people argue that Russia broke the Budapest Agreement on Ukraine's borders, Russia will always state that Ukraine were the first to break an agreement, over Sevastopol.

I think most western leaders realise this now, which is why Crimea has de facto been ceded to Russia, whatever the morals of the situation. That would certainly be John Kerry's position, I would think. But did anyone notice that Kerry recently broke his leg in a cycling accident? This is not some minor injury, he's going to have to take some time out from his work... which will mean more of a role for his assistants, including... the fanatical Victoria 'F' Nuland. Does anyone see a link between this, and the sudden return of Poroshenko's 'Crimea or die' rhetoric, which he had actually previously been warned publicly against by Kerry?

There's a power struggle going on in the US administration between the hawks and doves, and it's worrying to me that Obama seems so disengaged, that he seems happy for them all to sort it out themselves.

BTW, from what I've read, Poroshenko doesn't come up for election himself in October - it's local elections, but his party, and the party of the PM 'Our Guy Yats' are expected to lose heavily. I'm not sure how much power these local administrations have in Ukraine... in the UK they have very little, and their elections are just seen as a glorified public opinion poll... but a heavy defeat for Poro and Yats will not look good. Worryingly, rather than elect people committed to peace, the Ukrainians could well go more extreme and encourage the far right to make a grab for power. I have a feeling that Russia will act well before then, though... their propaganda is already laying the ground for Minsk 2 being 'impossible to enact' and in their narrative, it all being Kiev's fault.

 

[ArmyATC]

I'm not sure Poroshenko doesn't still think there are those in the US who have his back, enabling him to make statements such as this...

http://www.rferl.org/content/poroshenko-ukraine-will-do-everything-retake-crimea/27055170.html

Speaking at a news conference on June 5, a day after warning of a "colossal threat" of the resumption of full-scale fighting with Russian-backed rebels in his annual state-of-the-nation address, Poroshenko said that "every day and every moment, we will do everything to return Crimea to Ukraine."

When Kerry met Putin, Crimea wasn't even discussed, and neither was it at Minsk. There's been a lot of rubbish talked about why all this Ukraine business happened, and who really initiated it - was it a 'fascist coup' organised by the US? Whether it was or not, that in itself wasn't the start - it was Ukraine's decision to unilaterally scrap the recently extended Russian lease on the Sevastopol base. Putin saw several steps ahead that this would end up as a NATO base, and went into action. So if people argue that Russia broke the Budapest Agreement on Ukraine's borders, Russia will always state that Ukraine were the first to break an agreement, over Sevastopol.

I think most western leaders realise this now, which is why Crimea has de facto been ceded to Russia, whatever the morals of the situation. That would certainly be John Kerry's position, I would think. But did anyone notice that Kerry recently broke his leg in a cycling accident? This is not some minor injury, he's going to have to take some time out from his work... which will mean more of a role for his assistants, including... the fanatical Victoria 'F' Nuland. Does anyone see a link between this, and the sudden return of Poroshenko's 'Crimea or die' rhetoric, which he had actually previously been warned publicly against by Kerry?

There's a power struggle going on in the US administration between the hawks and doves, and it's worrying to me that Obama seems so disengaged, that he seems happy for them all to sort it out themselves.

BTW, from what I've read, Poroshenko doesn't come up for election himself in October - it's local elections, but his party, and the party of the PM 'Our Guy Yats' are expected to lose heavily. I'm not sure how much power these local administrations have in Ukraine... in the UK they have very little, and their elections are just seen as a glorified public opinion poll... but a heavy defeat for Poro and Yats will not look good. Worryingly, rather than elect people committed to peace, the Ukrainians could well go more extreme and encourage the far right to make a grab for power. I have a feeling that Russia will act well before then, though... their propaganda is already laying the ground for Minsk 2 being 'impossible to enact' and in their narrative, it all being Kiev's fault.

Thank you for the correction, I was thinking after reading Poro's State of Ukraine he wasn't referring to himself, but had a conflicting report.

A) Crimea. Yes I caught that reference too. Thought he was playing to his base, but with the history you provide, I see it runs deeper than that. Notice in his speech, he gave three goals that seem to line up with Minsk. One, decentralization, two, immunity, and three, local elections. But he never says 'In accordance with Minsk' . So he seems hell-bent on feeding this paranoia (maybe justified) about 'pro-Moscow' fifth columns. Either way, Kerry has attempted to get Poro to the table, but still can't get him to do so. That's worrisome, if threats of cutting IMF funds won't bring him round, what will? He keeps up appearances, but still is publically stating his official domestic policy is the reunification with Crimea. And even Canadian officials are beating the drum. I agree, a more extreme element is what both NATO and Russia fear. If it starts to lean that way, those tanks are, with fanfare, crossing the border and probably headed for Kiev. And with US troops in the middle, it could get very ugly. That would be the absolute point where Russia feels completely trapped. And they know the consequence of that would be nuclear.


B) Obama, Kerry, power struggle.. Yes indeed. When Obama came to power, do you remember the meeting the Russian Secusity Service had that labeled him and his policies as 'managed chaos'? Apparently, due to his red past and the influence his chief advisor, Valerie Jarrett (Weatherman Underground daughter)inspired him to have adopted some form of Marxist Lassaiz Faire. It does fit much of what we perceive as a disengaged, almost Dan Quaylesque ineptness. But this is obviously his handlers plan. I bring up this not in a political way, but as it pertains to his foreign policy. The hawks over here, and there, are pressing hard. But with the Middle East in a regional war, this focus on Ukraine is almost too canned. I know it's the G7 and all, but some attention needs to be drawn to the Middle East. Poro's the wild card, and with Nuland (neocon) taking the lead in Europe, well we know how contemptuous she is. Which, is not, the American citizenry's opinion, BTW. Pricess Charlotte is all the rage

If Russia perceives a threat to Crimea, especially timed with anything in Syria, their Federal security will feel a need to act. The hard liners are pushing Russia into a corner on this, let's hope some one can get Poro to the table. If not, we may be seeing conflict erupt soon after the first major engagements are officially acknowledged in the Middle East, IMO.