Tacit threat to Australia from China

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Obreid

Power Poster
There's far more money in weapons sales than in oil or any other commodity. War has always been around, always will be around and will always be encouraged by those who make profit from it
Aerospace and defense industry has a net margin of 7-8% ROI.
soft-drink industry +10%
Banking, real-estate, semiconductors, telecom all have higher rates of return than aerospace and defense.

My point is not to diminish the Danger for what profit their is in war.

The profit incentive to wage war is always there and its spread across the whole of a economy, ideally so if the decision to wage war is made.
It’s not just Lockheed Martin that profits.
It everything.
In some cases even the lives of the countries involved in the long run.

If you want to figure out an interesting return on investment. Try and determine how much taxes collected that go into infrastructure or social services or regulatory agencies actually go into those stated goals. Or measure how those programs actually deliver on the stated purpose.
Defense is just a part of the discretionary budget. The Discretionary part of our budget is only a 1/3 to a 1/4th of the total budget.

But what is the preeminent purpose of our federal government anyway.
Defense

What’s the real growth industry here.

 

DarkNoon

Power Poster
Aerospace and defense industry has a net margin of 7-8% ROI.
soft-drink industry +10%
Banking, real-estate, semiconductors, telecom all have higher rates of return than aerospace and defense.

My point is not to diminish the Danger for what profit their is in war.

The profit incentive to wage war is always there and its spread across the whole of a economy, ideally so if the decision to wage war is made.
It’s not just Lockheed Martin that profits.
It everything.
In some cases even the lives of the countries involved in the long run.

If you want to figure out an interesting return on investment. Try and determine how much taxes collected that go into infrastructure or social services or regulatory agencies actually go into those stated goals. Or measure how those programs actually deliver on the stated purpose.
Defense is just a part of the discretionary budget. The Discretionary part of our budget is only a 1/3 to a 1/4th of the total budget.

But what is the preeminent purpose of our federal government anyway.
Defense

What’s the real growth industry here.

You sir along with many others here are true patriot for looking deeper into a contested issue AND for not blindly believing in what you read online or someone you may know...

👏 👏 👏 👏

Profiting from war is just a by-product of US intrest in securing economic and political security for our future and present tense.. In order for the US to secure its future must involve war and again our ancestors made sure that the US people can prosper not only in times of uncertainty BUT even in times of war.
 

DEFCON Warning System

Director
Staff member
Aerospace and defense industry has a net margin of 7-8% ROI.
soft-drink industry +10%
Banking, real-estate, semiconductors, telecom all have higher rates of return than aerospace and defense.
Context is important. Sure, soft drinks make more profit by percentage, but defense makes more money by volume.

10% profit on a million dollars (just throwing numbers out there) is less than 8% profit on a billion dollars.
 

CreepyMonkey

Active member
You sir along with many others here are true patriot for looking deeper into a contested issue AND for not blindly believing in what you read online or someone you may know...

👏 👏 👏 👏

Profiting from war is just a by-product of US intrest in securing economic and political security for our future and present tense.. In order for the US to secure its future must involve war and again our ancestors made sure that the US people can prosper not only in times of uncertainty BUT even in times of war.
I specifically stated all types of contestants and contests so as not to single out the United States. Frankly, the major profit in war and weapons is black market, something you fail to account for in your response. War is immensely profitable and good for business around the world, and has been as long as there have been people, and will continue for as long as there are people.

I do not believe the United States engages in war (for the most part) officially for profit purposes. Except for maybe Syria. Or Iraq. Or....(insert your favorite conflict after WW2 here).

Do not conflate being a patriot with believing in US leadership. I am a patriot, and love my country as much or more than anyone else. That doesn't mean I believe in every conflict our corrupt leadership class has engaged us in for their own shadowy political/profiteering/power reasons. I don't speak politically very often but I very much resent the implication that because I am skeptical of our leaderships reasons and motivations for engaging in many different conflicts around the world that makes me less than patriotic. I am not an isolationist. In fact, freedom dies in isolation and darkness. We should be fighting for freedom, and we have many times.

But my definition of a patriot is someone who stands for his fellow citizens and the rule of law as set forth in our Constitution. Not for blind faith that everything leadership tells them about "reasons" is true.
 

Obreid

Power Poster
Context is important. Sure, soft drinks make more profit by percentage, but defense makes more money by volume.

10% profit on a million dollars (just throwing numbers out there) is less than 8% profit on a billion dollars.
It’s still the return on investment, the dollars people invest into it.

There is the danger of the defense industry $ profits goals or actions.

All industries have a capacity limit that people will pay for their products.
There is always this, defense industries can enlarge their markets by encourage conflict and fear through lobbying and media.
That is the line that those industries need watched always.

I've been very vocal in my opposition to endless wars and coups being fermented. I have however never believed we should whither our military. We should do everything to make sure we’re the preeminent military and make sure any nation takes a pause when considering their own actions towards our interest.

Big club but not a bully.

I also support the citizen solder. The willingness and ability for the citizens of the nation to mobilize in overwhelming force and be incorporated into our professional military.
it’s a millennium old tradition and is badly damaged in many respects in america.
That is why the use of force should always be used judiciously and with real and long term goals. Otherwise we damage that willingness to stand and support when their is a real need.
 

DarkNoon

Power Poster
the major profit in war and weapons is black market, something you fail to account for in your response.
I don't have to account for it in my response as any and all US weapons arms sales is only approved through Congress which are all made public in due timing.

BUT you are right that the black market profits in war and poses a huge problem for the United States because our enemies of the US are whom supplies the black markets.

Selling weapons to US adversaries has become beyond profitable for many many countries. The world learned from US play book in the Afghan U.S.S.R invasion. Where U.S sold weapons to fight against the Soviets.

But I can tell you as a FACT that Red Tape prevents any US assets or entities from selling to black markets. The government may be big but that is why RED TAPE exists. Everything anyone does is cataloged and recorded in official voting which is required for any and all federal bills.
 

Obreid

Power Poster
I specifically stated all types of contestants and contests so as not to single out the United States. Frankly, the major profit in war and weapons is black market, something you fail to account for in your response. War is immensely profitable and good for business around the world, and has been as long as there have been people, and will continue for as long as there are people.

I do not believe the United States engages in war (for the most part) officially for profit purposes. Except for maybe Syria. Or Iraq. Or....(insert your favorite conflict after WW2 here).

Do not conflate being a patriot with believing in US leadership. I am a patriot, and love my country as much or more than anyone else. That doesn't mean I believe in every conflict our corrupt leadership class has engaged us in for their own shadowy political/profiteering/power reasons. I don't speak politically very often but I very much resent the implication that because I am skeptical of our leaderships reasons and motivations for engaging in many different conflicts around the world that makes me less than patriotic. I am not an isolationist. In fact, freedom dies in isolation and darkness. We should be fighting for freedom, and we have many times.

But my definition of a patriot is someone who stands for his fellow citizens and the rule of law as set forth in our Constitution. Not for blind faith that everything leadership tells them about "reasons" is true.
Monkey I meant no disparagement towards you and I was not clear in my post regarding that. My apologies.

It just concerns me that our culture sometimes views defense as an ugly thing that should be done away with.
So it was solely for contrast.

Leaders throw solders into conflict recklessly then want to muzzle and hobble them when the need is passed.
War is just not going away anytime soon. People and nations hate, and covet what others have.
So war and conflict continues in a real 3D chess game with multiple players. Their is no reset the game just goes on.
 

CreepyMonkey

Active member
I specifically stated all types of contestants and contests so as not to single out the United States. Frankly, the major profit in war and weapons is black market, something you fail to account for in your response. War is immensely profitable and good for business around the world, and has been as long as there have been people, and will continue for as long as there are people.

I do not believe the United States engages in war (for the most part) officially for profit purposes. Except for maybe Syria. Or Iraq. Or....(insert your favorite conflict after WW2 here).

Do not conflate being a patriot with believing in US leadership. I am a patriot, and love my country as much or more than anyone else. That doesn't mean I believe in every conflict our corrupt leadership class has engaged us in for their own shadowy political/profiteering/power reasons. I don't speak politically very often but I very much resent the implication that because I am skeptical of our leaderships reasons and motivations for engaging in many different conflicts around the world that makes me less than patriotic. I am not an isolationist. In fact, freedom dies in isolation and darkness. We should be fighting for freedom, and we have many times.

But my definition of a patriot is someone who stands for his fellow citizens and the rule of law as set forth in our Constitution. Not for blind faith that everything leadership tells them about "reasons" is true.
I can't edit my own posts, but if I'm being honest, even if I could I wouldn't. Feel free to delete it if you feel its really inappropriate, no offense taken. Its your board. All I'm doing is establishing an opinion, which in the grand scheme of things is worth something only to me.
 

ralfy

Member
The US has a very good track record when it comes to war. Korea and Vietnam were lost not on the battlefield but in the halls of Congress.

I am not so cynical as to think the US engages in war just for the profit motive (though there are some businessmen who do and some politicians who enjoy the kickbacks). Some of the reasons were spurious, some not the business of the US. But only one war was fought for profit. (The U.S./Mexican war if I remember my history correctly.)
But the costs were high. Korea is still broken into two, even though there were attempts by Trump to engage in peace with North Korea. But the swap won't allow that.

For Vietnam, that was part of plans to control resources in Indochina, as exposed in the Pentagon Papers, and soon prompted U.S. allies to withdraw gold reserves because the U.S. was overspending. That's why the country eventually had to drop the gold standard and look for a replacement, which was the petrodollar. That, in turn, necessitated making deals with both sides, such as arming Israel and Saudi Arabia, similar to the detente initiated by Nixon with China even during the Vietnam conflict.

As for wars for profit, Smedley Butler raised that back in the 1930s and then warned about by Eisenhower by the 1950s. Currently, the phenomenon of a military industrial complex is well-known by historians, and can be seen not only in petrodollar recycling but even what happened in Panama, Lebanon, billions sent to Saddam, Irangate, the use of the mujahedeen, a second attack on Iraq over the use of Euros for oil trade, destabilization of Libya as it attempted to form its own oil bourse, attacks on Iran for the same reason, etc., military aid to Israel coupled with arms manufacturing outsourced to Egyptm not to mention cozy relationships between the bin Laden and Bush families, Cheney and Haliburton, the Carlyle Group, etc.

In the end, the swamp always gets what it wants. Even as he engaged in trade deals with China and peace deals with North Korea, Trump realized this as he considered bombing Iran in the end to get more brownie points from the gullible public. But that should not concern the latter further because Biden the warmonger is in town.
 

ralfy

Member
You sir along with many others here are true patriot for looking deeper into a contested issue AND for not blindly believing in what you read online or someone you may know...

👏 👏 👏 👏

Profiting from war is just a by-product of US intrest in securing economic and political security for our future and present tense.. In order for the US to secure its future must involve war and again our ancestors made sure that the US people can prosper not only in times of uncertainty BUT even in times of war.

Exactly! All those points by Reagan and subsequent Presidents about "freedom" and "democracy" for the people of the world and U.S. exceptionalism were merely covers for powermongering. In the end, U.S. politicians and their rich handlers are no different from counterparts in other countries whom they consider evil. No wonder they were wheeling and dealing with the same across almost seventy years!

The catch is that not only most U.S. citizens but most people of the world are decent, law-abiding folk, from conservatives in Nashville to Muslims in Kuala Lumpur. That means they want to do business and don't want conflict. Interestingly enough, that's what Trump also had in mind as he engaged in aggressive trade deals with China and peace deals with other countries.and many other countries had been doing across

But the swamp will never accept that. How else can it justify large amounts of money needed to support over 800 military bases and installations worldwide, let the military industrial complex profit from that, and pass on the costs to the gullible public, except to argue that there will always be enemies and they must be destroyed?

That's why Trump's out and Biden's in.
 

ralfy

Member
Aerospace and defense industry has a net margin of 7-8% ROI.
soft-drink industry +10%
Banking, real-estate, semiconductors, telecom all have higher rates of return than aerospace and defense.

My point is not to diminish the Danger for what profit their is in war.

The profit incentive to wage war is always there and its spread across the whole of a economy, ideally so if the decision to wage war is made.
It’s not just Lockheed Martin that profits.
It everything.
In some cases even the lives of the countries involved in the long run.

If you want to figure out an interesting return on investment. Try and determine how much taxes collected that go into infrastructure or social services or regulatory agencies actually go into those stated goals. Or measure how those programs actually deliver on the stated purpose.
Defense is just a part of the discretionary budget. The Discretionary part of our budget is only a 1/3 to a 1/4th of the total budget.

But what is the preeminent purpose of our federal government anyway.
Defense

What’s the real growth industry here.

The goal is not to be rich through the military industrial complex. Rather, it's to use the complex to arm the military needed to keep the dollar used as a reserve currency propped up. That in, turn, allows for continued heavy borrowing and spending across the board, and which started back in 1982:


That's what those 800 military bases and installations worldwide are there for. They were established not to protect the U.S. from attack or even to defend other peoples from "tyranny" but to protect U.S. interests, and that means the interests of those who control the U.S. economy and fund the government: the rich.

And that's the same rich which control those soda pop, pharma, semiconductor, defense, telecomm, etc., industries.

The catch is that Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa, and over forty countries are economically stronger and have become less interested in engaging in multilateral deals with the U.S. involved. They are more interested in bilateral deals, if not multilateral deals among themselves, and that may mean more use of other currencies.

And that's not good for the U.S. because that also means less dependence on the dollar and the U.S. itself. Trump likely understood this, which is why he wanted to reverse military expansionism, make other countries pay for any military help, close off borders, restrict free trade, and encourage the country to become less dependent on others.

That's not a new idea because that's how Japan, China, and others became economically stronger in the first place. The catch is that the U.S. became richer for the opposite reason: it encouraged the world to use its currency as a reserve, and then exploited that by borrowing and spending heavily. Now, it has something like $70 trillion in total debts and over $200 trillion in unfunded liabilities, and has to borrow and spend more to maintain not only its economy but even its military.

With that, there's no going back: the only thing that the country has is a hammer (the military), which means everything will have to look like a nail. Hence, Trump's loss and Biden's win, which assures domination once more by the swamp.
 
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