The Middle East Problem (Split from Air Raid Sirens in Israel (was Israel 21-Apr-2021))

TheChrome

Power Poster
These people are monsters and Israel really needs to just take over the whole land they are supposed to have.
Realistically, there is no reason they couldn't get along except there are bad actors on both sides. I have many Christian Palestinian friends, and they want no part of these stupid wars. You have Islamic extremists drumming up trouble on the Palestinian side. On the inverse, the ultra Orthodox Jews and other radicals are tantamount to the Scribes and Pharisees in the Greek Scriptures, and they drum up all sorts of hatred as well. Don't even get me started on the Hasidic Jews who are just dirty and filthy people. You have to walk through a Hasidic community to get to the park fom where some of my family lives in Rishon Letzion. They are like what I call "white trash" here in the States.
 

MichaelH

Member
The bottom line is this situation is not tenable. There has been no agreed upon resolution of any of the significant issues in play and there is no meaningful path to resolving those issues in the future. Ambiguous borders and constant low level violence are not ultimately in anyone's interest.

That said, I do think there is a fairly clear contrast here. Apart from the fundamental issue of "should there be an Israel/a Palestine", Israel's potentially offensive behavior is being too heavy handed in the service of political goals that some people don't like at all. This is just launching explosives randomly into civilians with no plan or objective whatsoever short of extortion. I guess you can disagree on the rights and wrongs of particular boundaries. But I cannot see a credible or morally acceptable defense of these kinds of actions. And let's be honest, this is basically the go-to tactic. What on earth could Israel possibly do but respond aggressively?
 

Saguenay

Member
These people are monsters and Israel really needs to just take over the whole land they are supposed to have.
Does Israel really need to take all the land they are supposed to own? Do you talk about this:
The great Israel that refers to the Land promised to the children of Israel, which stretches “from the river of Egypt to the Euphrates” in Genesis? All this is hogwash from the bible, which is a mythical collection.
 

willrod1989

Active member
These people are monsters and Israel really needs to just take over the whole land they are supposed to have.
Unfortunately, the bad actions of a few dictate the outcome for the majority. I've met many Palestinians who are outraged at the violence and seek a peaceful solution. I honestly wish that a two-state solution would work, as this would respect the needs of both sides. Ordinary people do not want violence.
 

TheChrome

Power Poster
The solution is this... Draw a boundary around the current Israeli/Palestinian territories and tell the Christians, Jews, and Islamic people who live within those boundaries, they can buy property, move about, and live freely within those boundaries. It's as simple as that, but the buttheads and stupid people in charge cant understand any sort of logic. People should learn to overcome their differences, and Israel/Palastine should not be two states. It should be one united state with all able to live within its boundaries. Palestinians and Jews and Christians. All of which should contribute equally to the collective community. Nothing of the sort would ever happen, and the true solution is the one that comes from God.
 
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Saguenay

Member
Unfortunately, the bad actions of a few dictate the outcome for the majority. I've met many Palestinians who are outraged at the violence and seek a peaceful solution. I honestly wish that a two-state solution would work, as this would respect the needs of both sides. Ordinary people do not want violence.
The big problem is religions among others. The holy places that we argue, both the Bible and the Koran, these books are just bullshit and there is a lot of violence in these stories.
 

TheChrome

Power Poster
The big problem is religions among others. The holy places that we argue, both the Bible and the Koran, these books are just bullshit and there is a lot of violence in these stories.
The bible is not nonsense. It is true and accurate. Only man's inability to apply it is the problem. Take for instance holy sites. The bible indicates holy sites are irrelavent in worship, so why do people cling to these things? "The hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem...true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth." -John 4:21-24 (It's actually a protection for true worshipers of God to not get involved in these stupid places anyway. A bunch of people got stampeded to death in Meron, Israel recently. People get stampeded in Mecca during the hajj. But these things do not happen in true worship, because "God is not a God of disorder, but peace." -1 Corinthian 14:33)
 
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Obreid

Power Poster
Unfortunately, the bad actions of a few dictate the outcome for the majority. I've met many Palestinians who are outraged at the violence and seek a peaceful solution. I honestly wish that a two-state solution would work, as this would respect the needs of both sides. Ordinary people do not want violence.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." ― Edmund Burke
 

MichaelH

Member
The big problem is religions among others. The holy places that we argue, both the Bible and the Koran, these books are just bullshit and there is a lot of violence in these stories.
Leaving aside theological arguments for a Jewish state and what those borders might be, the reality is that the modern state of Israel was founded on both those principles and the undeniable secular reality that their people had been decimated by genocide. Their arrival was not welcomed by existing inhabitants who saw very little upside in joining up with the outsiders. So even if one leaves religion out of it, there is not going to be a spirit of trust and understanding when it comes to these sorts of longstanding quarrels. There just isn't and I would argue that it would be the same if Judaism and Islam magically vanished from the planet tomorrow.

In addition to that problem, you have the equally undeniable secular reality that there is no track record at all of democracy in this part of the world. The most democratic Arab states have occasional elections that don't really determine much and are constantly on the edge of a junta in the best of times. And it's downhill from there. So the notion that these folks are going to be able to overlook these problems and get together in a parliamentary democracy is just plain delusion. We are seeing in America today what ethnic conflict does to collective identity and we haven't got 5% of the ethnic/racial/linguistic/cultural problems that these folks would have to work out.

Some problems really can't be fixed. Ultimately, borders are determined by force. We've forgotten that, but it isn't any less true today than hundreds of years ago.
 

Saguenay

Member
Yes and I detect a lot of violence and hate in your responses as well.
No, that's just my opinion. But what violence or hate are you talking about? If I disagree with a member here, it's not violence or hate. Maybe it's in my way of writing, I am not an English speaker by birth, I am a French speaker. So the words used may not be the right ones.
 

TheChrome

Power Poster
No, that's just my opinion. But what violence or hate are you talking about? If I disagree with a member here, it's not violence or hate. Maybe it's in my way of writing, I am not an English speaker by birth, I am a French speaker. So the words used may not be the right ones.
Bullshit translates easily into English
 

Obreid

Power Poster
No, that's just my opinion. But what violence or hate are you talking about? If I disagree with a member here, it's not violence or hate. Maybe it's in my way of writing, I am not an English speaker by birth, I am a French speaker. So the words used may not be the right ones.
Well then how about animosity or anger.
I was borrowing from the left in America’s current penchant for describing oppositional ideas, opinion, or facts as violence or hate speech.
Being from France you very easily would have missed that in translation.
 

DarkNoon

Power Poster
I personally think Israel has the right to its land and should take it all. NOT because of the bible or "religious" views cause I do not believe in such things,.. but the Jews need a place of their own and its been theirs for quite sometime. The Muslims have the entire middle east. Let Israel have what it has.

Plus the US needs a strong ally in the middle east and Israel is the only one up to par to be a formidable ally in the region. Without Israel all US goals in the middle east would likely go nowhere.

RELIGIOUS beliefs aside the US needs Israel as a key ally or pillar in the region. So don't matter what anyone wants. Its whatever makes America safer in my eyes at least.
 

DEFCON Warning System

Director
Staff member
RELIGIOUS beliefs aside the US needs Israel as a key ally or pillar in the region. So don't matter what anyone wants. Its whatever makes America safer in my eyes at least.
It has been suggested that if the U.S. abandons Israel, a lot of enemies of the U.S. would no longer have a casus belli against the U.S., since their main beef is that the U.S. supports Israel.
 

RiffRaff

Deputy Director
Staff member
It has been suggested that if the U.S. abandons Israel, a lot of enemies of the U.S. would no longer have a casus belli against the U.S., since their main beef is that the U.S. supports Israel.
And that beef is not entirely unjustified. The land was taken from the people that lived there and given to other people, creating an occupied territory right from the start. The Palestinians also have a right to what was originally their land. And Israel has been pretty heavy handed in dealing with the Palestinians. Some people are accusing Israel of Apartheid against the Palestinians.

In my mind, the two-state solution was the obvious choice to eliminate the Palestinian/Israeli conflict for good, and I think Jerusalem should have been made the spiritual capitol of the world, not owned or occupied by any one religion but governed and protected by a neutral third party with no dog in the fight and guaranteed equal access to all religions. But that is, unfortunately, no longer a viable option.

No one will be satisfied with anything less than the complete destruction of the enemy.
 

TheChrome

Power Poster
And that beef is not entirely unjustified. The land was taken from the people that lived there and given to other people, creating an occupied territory right from the start. The Palestinians also have a right to what was originally their land. And Israel has been pretty heavy handed in dealing with the Palestinians. Some people are accusing Israel of Apartheid against the Palestinians.

In my mind, the two-state solution was the obvious choice to eliminate the Palestinian/Israeli conflict for good, and I think Jerusalem should have been made the spiritual capitol of the world, not owned or occupied by any one religion but governed and protected by a neutral third party with no dog in the fight and guaranteed equal access to all religions. But that is, unfortunately, no longer a viable option.

No one will be satisfied with anything less than the complete destruction of the enemy.
Is this like the settlers pushing the American Indians off their land? This debate can be had in any land or country. The fact of the matter is, until greed and conquest is eliminated from the heart of mankind, there will never be a solution. A two state solution is like putting the Palestinians on an Indian reservation. We have seen how that doesn't work here in the states.
 

DarkNoon

Power Poster
It has been suggested that if the U.S. abandons Israel, a lot of enemies of the U.S. would no longer have a casus belli against the U.S., since their main beef is that the U.S. supports Israel.
We are the infidels. NO matter what we do they will always be after us. So regardless if we minded our own business they will be after us. Its proven because countries around the world suffer from terror attacks and they are not as involved as the US but are still targeted.

Besides that the cons and pros of having a very close strategic relationship with Israel way way overcome any cons. US needs to be able to do what it needs to do and project its power in the middle east. Otherwise the past 30 years will be for nothing in the middle east.
 
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