The Middle East Problem (Split from Air Raid Sirens in Israel (was Israel 21-Apr-2021))

TheChrome

Power Poster
Palestinians don't want a two-state solution. iirc, they were offered one and said no.
This is true. When you have parties that don't want to negotiate, its a no win situation. I must just be really smart, because it seems if Palestinians and Jews would get along, they might hava a happy country. Apparently they are ignorent idiots, because those parties cant get along with anyone.
 

DarkNoon

Power Poster
This is true. When you have parties that don't want to negotiate, its a no win situation. I must just be really smart, because it seems if Palestinians and Jews would get along, they might hava a happy country. Apparently they are ignorent idiots, because those parties cant get along with anyone.
Your right they are idiots for letting their feelings get out of hand. Look I don't necessarily believe in anything, but I think WE CAN ALL AGREE 500% that people are aloud to think what they want or say whatever they want. But when peoples belief become a security issue or a stability issue that's when it goes to far. There is absurdly no reason why we can't all get along. But human emotions get in the way of progress sadly.
 
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DarkNoon

Power Poster
Your right they are idiots for letting their feelings get out of hand. Look I don't necessarily believe in anything, but I think WE CAN ALL AGREE 500% that people are aloud to think what they want or say whatever they want. But when peoples belief become a security issue or a stability issue that's when it goes to far. There is absurdly no reason why we can't all get along. But human emotions get in the way of progress sadly.
The problem with the world isn't religion or belief. But emotions. People don't know how to properly express themselves or their views. Its me or nothing, or them or us, and all or nothing....
 

TheChrome

Power Poster
Your right they are idiots for letting their feelings get out of hand. Look I don't necessarily believe in anything, but I think WE CAN ALL AGREE 500% that people are aloud to think what they want or say whatever they want. But when peoples belief become a security issue or a stability issue that's when it goes to far. There is absurdly no reason why we can't all get along. But human emotions get in the way of progress sadly.
The solution to all problems is to have a beer and and a meal with someone. If you think muslims dont drink beer...think again. I had a fantastic time drinking beer and eating pizza in Tel Aviv along the beach with a Muslim Couple. We had to use google translate to communicate, but it was a good time. That is most people. I hate that the minority jerk bags Hijak humanity with their stupidity.
 
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DarkNoon

Power Poster
The solution to all problems is to have a beer and and a meal with someone. If you think muslims sont drink beer...think again. I had a fantastic time drinking beer and eating pizza in Tel Aviv along the beach with a Muslim Couple. We had to use google translate to communicate, but it was a good time. That is most people. I hate that the minority jerk bags Hijak humanity with their stupidity.
I work for good old Uncle Sam and doing so even to my last years of retirement soon hopefully. Uncle Sam has sent me far and wide. Seen many, talked to many, and got to personally know a lot of people from many cultures. Communication all starts with something simple as you said like a meal, or just simply trying to understand and RESPECT a culture goes very far for both sides.
 

DarkNoon

Power Poster
RESPECT a culture goes very far for both sides.
You can disagree or totally outright hate what someone thinks. But doesn't mean you can't respect their views. There is a story behind everything especially culture, beliefs, and politics. In order to work with the other side you MUST respect their views otherwise HOW CAN they respect your views.
 

TheChrome

Power Poster
You can disagree or totally outright hate what someone thinks. But doesn't mean you can't respect their views. There is a story behind everything especially culture, beliefs, and politics. In order to work with the other side you MUST respect their views otherwise HOW CAN they respect your views.
Perhaps, but just because a person views things a certain way, it does not make it right. The bible outlines many things that society as a whole thinks is acceptable, but is not acceptable according to God's standards. He will allow such thinkings to exists for now, but at a certain time, those things will be cut off.
 

DarkNoon

Power Poster
because a person views things a certain way, it does not make it right.
100% yes. But you cannot get mad, force, or even be passive aggressive about your stance in what is right. There is always common ground WHICH there always is and that is what must be sought. Not debate, but rather a delicate dance where one must not step on each others toes. Dancing is intimate not sexually but you must get a feel for your partner. Same thing when two sides try to get along.

Just trying to shed some compromise on here. Thanks to Uncle Sam I can talk my way though any sticky, uncomfortable, aggressive, and controversial situation. But doing so has made me see the world and people in a different way then most Americans.
 

Obreid

Power Poster
I
You can disagree or totally outright hate what someone thinks. But doesn't mean you can't respect their views. There is a story behind everything especially culture, beliefs, and politics. In order to work with the other side you MUST respect their views otherwise HOW CAN they respect your views.
I agree with you that respect or tolerance is always the place to begin at, No question. If however respect is not returned you have a whole different story in front of you.

A husband and wife can set down and have diner a drink 365 days a year. If the husbands character or lack of is to keep drinking and beat the shit out of her all those meals mean nothing.
 

DarkNoon

Power Poster
however respect is not returned you have a whole different story in front of you.
That is why we have courts, police, and the military to secure what is truly right in the eyes of the people. Its different for most countries but that is what it boils down to in the Western World.
 

DarkNoon

Power Poster
but that is what it boils down to in the Western World.
But that is the issue here. The Western world tries to put a Western world fix based on Western world views on things across the globe that require much more intricate detailed work, understanding, and balance. Going back to the me or you, them or us, all or nothing conversation. Seen it first hand where things could of gone so right but went so wrong due to miss communication and lack of understanding from the other side.
 
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Obreid

Power Poster
That is why we have courts, police, and the military to secure what is truly right in the eyes of the people. Its different for most countries but that is what it boils down to in the Western World.
Yes I was making the point that there are still just bad actors internationally and talking and dialogue won’t necessarily solve the issues.
I’ve traveled a little as well and agree at the personal level most people you engage are decent people.
But you also learn to carry your wallet in your front pocket and never take your your US dollars out with your local currency.
 

TheChrome

Power Poster
Bullshit translates easily into EngliTake it as a joke. If it is true we do not understand French, it is also true this comment is not derogatory,but done in tongue and cheek. It is true, that different cultures do not understand the jokes of another culture. You are good my man.I hope to hear more from you!
 

MichaelH

Member
But that is the issue here. The Western world tries to put a Western world fix based on Western world views on things across the globe that require much more intricate detailed work, understanding, and balance. Going back to the me or you, them or us, all or nothing conversation. Seen it first hand where things could of gone so right but went so wrong due to miss communication and lack of understanding from the other side.
It's just not ours to fix. We're an outsider in every way, geographically, culturally, you name it. So it should end up being about interests for us. And this is a difficult thing because I don't think America has been very good at clearly identifying and prioritizing interests for a long time now. We aren't sure why we support Israel for the most part but not all the way and we aren't sure how we ended up with the other relationships we have in the region.
 

william

Active member
And that beef is not entirely unjustified. The land was taken from the people that lived there and given to other people, creating an occupied territory right from the start. The Palestinians also have a right to what was originally their land. And Israel has been pretty heavy handed in dealing with the Palestinians. Some people are accusing Israel of Apartheid against the Palestinians.

In my mind, the two-state solution was the obvious choice to eliminate the Palestinian/Israeli conflict for good, and I think Jerusalem should have been made the spiritual capitol of the world, not owned or occupied by any one religion but governed and protected by a neutral third party with no dog in the fight and guaranteed equal access to all religions. But that is, unfortunately, no longer a viable option.

No one will be satisfied with anything less than the complete destruction of the enemy.
Wasn't the two state solution rejected by the palestinians? They say they want to erase Israel off the map.
 

DarkNoon

Power Poster
It's just not ours to fix. We're an outsider in every way, geographically, culturally, you name it.
Sadly that is not the case. America has embedded themselves so far into Israel politics that there is no return. Israel and the US are joint at the hips for many many many reason. The biggest one is that the US needs Israel as a formidable ally or a strong strategic partner in the middle east. So again it doesn't matter what any side wants, it doesn't matter what Israel wants for that matter. All that matters is the US keeps its security details in place which means Israel must stand strong at all cost which doesn't mean war either. But rather keeping the peace no matter how twisted it gets.
 

MichaelH

Member
Sadly that is not the case. America has embedded themselves so far into Israel politics that there is no return. Israel and the US are joint at the hips for many many many reason. The biggest one is that the US needs Israel as a formidable ally or a strong strategic partner in the middle east. So again it doesn't matter what any side wants, it doesn't matter what Israel wants for that matter. All that matters is the US keeps its security details in place which means Israel must stand strong at all cost which doesn't mean war either. But rather keeping the peace no matter how twisted it gets.
I don't dispute that many feel that way and that this is driving a lot of what we see. But we can't get anywhere in terms of a coherent foreign policy if we can't explain why. We always say that we need a strategic partner in the Middle East, but to what end? Airbases? Oil exports? Voice of America transmitters? What is it that we want from our relationship with Israel or Iran or any of these other actors in the region? I don't think we know. If it is just domestic politics and the Israel lobby in America, then that's all well and good, but that's the kind of reasoning that leads to erosion of power when compared to authoritarian competitors. We don't know why we care about Ukraine (which implies that we really don't), but the Russians certainly know why they care about Ukraine. You're starting to see that kind of thinking blending into the Taiwan situation too. The problems are a lot more obvious in those cases because of the mismatches in power. With Israel, there isn't a mismatch today or in the near future, but while we talk about keeping the peace we are paving Iran's path to the weapons that will guarantee that peace won't happen. Without the conviction of a clear motivation for action, we lack the strength to do the hard part.
 

DarkNoon

Power Poster
strategic partner in the Middle East, but to what end? Airbases? Oil exports? Voice of America transmitters? What is it that we want from our relationship with Israel
All of the above and more. The relationship that has been formed is on many, many, many different unique levels of agreements and understandings. Why does the US relationship with Israel have to be for "one" thing. Its for many reason. It simply boils down to Israel can not be who it is today with the US, and the US cannot hope to achieve power projection in the middle east without them. Power projection involves many aspects and issues not just one.
 
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