• Guests may view all public nodes. However, you must be registered to post.

DEFCON 3 | Europe Crisis | Feburary 2022

Status
Not open for further replies.
The Swiss break their neutral status.

Very interesting. Hopefully, Switzerland has made a deal with the Communist PRC China to protect their banks from Russia cyberattacks. I would imagine that a lot of Russian funds already moved out of Europe altogether by now.
 
One thread worth following in the negotiations between Ukraine and Russia: I don't know what Russia will ultimately demand, but it seems the bare minimum they would take is going to be a firm commitment from Ukraine not to pursue NATO membership or affiliation and a rollback of the sanctions imposed since the beginning of this situation. Ukraine can commit to the former by treaty or assurance or whatever mechanism the sides agree upon, but the latter will require the assent of numerous other parties, most notably the US and EU. If they can't get that, Putin either has to win or go out on his shield, which means Ukraine cannot possibly win this war. But if they do get that, then all of a sudden all the pundits talking about what a disaster this was for Russia are left in an awkward position. Putin has no ongoing consequences and Mr. Lavrov will be making the rounds explaining that all Russia ever asked for was for Ukraine not to join up with an enemy alliance, and they wouldn't do it, and isn't it a shame that all these people had to die so that we end up with what we asked for peacefully earlier this year, and of course what we asked for is nothing more than the fulfillment of the assurances NATO made right after the Soviet Union collapsed. And that story will be about 60% true, and Russia will be in the position of having achieved by force what it could not by negotiation, having lost nothing but a few weeks of economic chaos and a relatively insignificant bruising for their military.

And Ukraine knows all of this, so if they can get their bottom line met, they will be asking a lot of hard questions of their not quite allies, probably friends in the West.
IMO some sanctions will prob not be lifted for awhile even if Russia departs Ukraine, which at this point I don’t see happening. Putin has overreached too far to back out now. The only way I see Russia leaving if he is ousted and replaced. and sure he doesn’t want that area of his border in NATO. But what puzzles me if he annexes Ukraine he will have more NATO countries on his border than he has now. I believe the man has lost it and there will be no reasoning with him.
 
I believe the man has lost it and there will be no reasoning with him.
My concern with this idea is that I think we are conflating "this is not what I would have done" with "no rational person would do this". Right now, today, Russia is worse off than I would have expected them to be. But an irrational action is something like being afraid of a NATO attack and then invading Kenya. Things like the nuclear talk are all easily explained as standard issue brinkmanship in negotiations and diplomacy, amped up to an uncomfortable level for a purpose. You can defeat Ukraine, occupy some of it, establish a rump puppet state as a buffer, and turn your gaze elsewhere (MUCH easier said than done, but doable). You can accept significant economic consequences in exchange for an effective warning to the world that you can and will use force if your critical demands are not met. All of this might be a bad idea, maybe even a disastrous idea, but it's not fundamentally irrational. So as I look at these reports, I look through the lens of "what has Russia lost that they can't get back?" The answer to that for me is very little if anything. What has Ukraine lost that they can't get back? Maybe nothing, but maybe their capital in a week. My point with this is that there is a clear path to a situation in which Russia is obviously better off than they were a month ago. There is also a path where that doesn't happen, but don't forget that the same people touting the unimaginable financial consequences to the Putin regime are also celebrating the repulsion of an amphibious assault that probably couldn't have conquered the Georgia Bulldogs, let alone Georgia the state, Georgia the country, or Odessa.
 
My concern with this idea is that I think we are conflating "this is not what I would have done" with "no rational person would do this". Right now, today, Russia is worse off than I would have expected them to be. But an irrational action is something like being afraid of a NATO attack and then invading Kenya. Things like the nuclear talk are all easily explained as standard issue brinkmanship in negotiations and diplomacy, amped up to an uncomfortable level for a purpose. You can defeat Ukraine, occupy some of it, establish a rump puppet state as a buffer, and turn your gaze elsewhere (MUCH easier said than done, but doable). You can accept significant economic consequences in exchange for an effective warning to the world that you can and will use force if your critical demands are not met. All of this might be a bad idea, maybe even a disastrous idea, but it's not fundamentally irrational. So as I look at these reports, I look through the lens of "what has Russia lost that they can't get back?" The answer to that for me is very little if anything. What has Ukraine lost that they can't get back? Maybe nothing, but maybe their capital in a week. My point with this is that there is a clear path to a situation in which Russia is obviously better off than they were a month ago. There is also a path where that doesn't happen, but don't forget that the same people touting the unimaginable financial consequences to the Putin regime are also celebrating the repulsion of an amphibious assault that probably couldn't have conquered the Georgia Bulldogs, let alone Georgia the state, Georgia the country, or Odessa.
Roll Tide
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom