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UA-RU | May 1st-20th | DISCUSSIONS

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I think this is a good analysis of Russia's current nuclear doctrine:


(apologies if posted in the wrong thread)
I would agree on most points
Most importantly in the use of this policy to encourage fear in foreign populations.
I have gone back and forth on the question of would they actually use a tactical nuke.
But mostly I believed no they won’t. They have used it as a implied threat to deter nato sanctions, and nato military aid to Ukraine and to try and generate fear in the western nations citizenry to try and change NATO’s support of Ukraine. This has created much fear in many places. But generally I’ve viewed it as a bluff. It has not worked, just as their military has been unable to make significant gains. It been over two months and they still have not been able to root the last of Ukrainian fighters out of Mariupol.
But for the basics of this doctrine it was fairly decent.
 
A fraction of the 82AB is in Poland, maybe a company or batallion-sized element. The entire division would be a massive deployment requiring support troops and C&C assets.
That’s fair statement regarding the whole division not being their. In late feb March it was around 3000-3400 troops from 82 deployed according to ABC. Between a battalion and brigade.
 
It isn’t because key members of the Russian government could be removed by Mossad (double) agents that are in Russia.
Israel wouldn't make a move on Russia like that.

Also we will never really know if Israel has people in Russia as double agents. As the whole purposes of having double agents is no one is supposed to know ever no matter what ever usually at all costs.

Even if you had sources I wouldn't allow top secret national information of Israel be shared. Just like we would never share the real US DEFCON level even if it was verified to us personally.
 
Even if you had sources I wouldn't allow top secret national information of Israel be shared. "Israel wouldn't make a move on Russia like that."
Kim possible taught this boy right.

Israel does have doubles in Russia because if you read the history of Mossad and the fundamentals behind them. I forgot the word but it's basically civilians who will help Mossad get into a country via passports and any means necessary, and it's the civilians' job to always report threats to the homeland back to the homeland. I'm just saying right now if people keep acting some type of way with the information Read the story on the Iranian scientist who died and look at how the spies got into the country and set it all up (It was Mossad/cia joint op).
 
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U.S. denies to provide intel to kill russian generals.
But yesterday they told us the other way around. It's just like in this INGSOC reality.
I do wonder if sending conflicting reports is a way to handle the information war, or it could just be media overblowing things. The last thing the US wants is proof that they helped cause Russian casualities.
 
@WeirdnessUnfolds
Just rack your brain a little.
And ask yourself how and if it's possible that Ukraine can withstand Russia just by itself for that long, taking all that destruction without knowing that they could win.
With some logic reasoning most countries had capitulated, Russian inventory is huge and deadly.
Russia knows who is backing Ukraine and their nuclear threats leave no doubts.
But the truth has died and we will find out eventually what's going on or we die a fool.
 
Per U.S. “senior American officials” -- NY Times writes: The United States has provided intelligence about Russian units that has allowed Ukrainians to target and kill many of the Russian generals who have died in action in the Ukraine war, according to senior American officials. Ukrainian officials said they have killed approximately 12 generals on the front lines, a number that has astonished military analysts. The targeting help is part of a classified effort by the Biden administration to provide real-time battlefield intelligence to Ukraine. That intelligence also includes anticipated Russian troop movements gleaned from recent American assessments of Moscow’s secret battle plan for the fighting in the Donbas region of eastern Ukraine, the officials said. Officials declined to specify how many generals had been killed as a result of U.S. assistance.

If in Iraq, Afghanistan, (fill-in-the-blank) wars, TASS reported (now a pretty good comparison to NYT) that "senior Russian officials" were providing intelligence to help get American generals killed, what would the U.S. reaction be?

I am not saying the "wars" are the same, especially from the USA perspective. But the USA perspective is not the only one in the world.
 
Per U.S. “senior American officials” -- NY Times writes: The United States has provided intelligence about Russian units that has allowed Ukrainians to target and kill many of the Russian generals who have died in action in the Ukraine war, according to senior American officials. Ukrainian officials said they have killed approximately 12 generals on the front lines, a number that has astonished military analysts. The targeting help is part of a classified effort by the Biden administration to provide real-time battlefield intelligence to Ukraine. That intelligence also includes anticipated Russian troop movements gleaned from recent American assessments of Moscow’s secret battle plan for the fighting in the Donbas region of eastern Ukraine, the officials said. Officials declined to specify how many generals had been killed as a result of U.S. assistance.

If in Iraq, Afghanistan, (fill-in-the-blank) wars, TASS reported (now a pretty good comparison to NYT) that "senior Russian officials" were providing intelligence to help get American generals killed, what would the U.S. reaction be?

I am not saying the "wars" are the same, especially from the USA perspective. But the USA perspective is not the only one in the world.
I have always had a revolutionary war attitude towards high ranking officers.
They wear a uniform and if you can kill them it is generally going to improve your war effort.

What stands out to me and I know I don’t know the normal signet capabilities. But having made some comparisons of when rivet joint or Huron signet plane are in the air and when these generals or command post seem to be knocked out. I find it pretty fascinating to think that a signet plane on station 150 miles away might be directly responsible for these targeting success.
One thing that I’ve learned and filed away if I ever do end up in a war.
Leave your damn cell phone at home or in a signal blocker bag.
 
but it would be the end of Russia as a federation.
I respectfully disagree and I continue to believe a negotiated settlement in the Ukraine should be the answer for the sake of everyone. The intelligence I am getting from Russia open sources is the opposite of your perspective, with a "North Korea" like siege mentality building in Russia. Like you, I hope I am wrong. And like you, I also hope that nukes are not on the distant horizon anywhere. But the Russian people feel directly impacted. You attack their television states, their economy, their utilities, etc., and those involved in that escalation have encouraged more of the Russian people to fight. I understand that Russia invaded Ukraine, and therefore... etc.

But psychologically, it is one thing to criticize from abroad and another thing to go after civilians and civilian organizations directly in Russia. Of course, they "won't like it," anymore than the suffering people in the Ukraine invasion do. But it changes the thinking from an "exercise," "foreign war," "bad foreign policy move," etc. to a direct threat to the people. And IMO every one of the Western analysts and media who predict the fall of Russia leadership and its government, will only make the Russian people more determined and intractable on Ukraine. Western analysts and media think that such talk will "demoralize" Russian people, through Information Warfare. I believe they have significantly miscalculated on this, and it will have the exact opposite affect.

To be clear, personally I do not like, I do not support, and I do not agree with Russia and its leadership, in any way. But I believe it is important to understand our enemies as well as our friends. Over the past century, the Russian people have gone through massive changes, world wars that literally attacked and destroyed their mainland (not only an island base), massive deaths, the Communist party fiasco, and one disaster after another. It would be hard to imagine a Russian citizen having a positive view of the past hundred years, and certainly the capitalist view of subjecting Russians to "lack" of things will do some damage to some people. But if we look at history, the Russian people are used to struggle, lack, even suffering. What they are not used to - whether we like it or not - is the idea of giving up on their national pride. I believe the matter of Russian national pride (right or wrong) is something too many Western analysts are underestimating. If the West and USA really want to fight with Russia, I expect Russia will hit first and hit hard. And sad to say, I believe much of their public would support that. I believe there are too many in Russia who are spoiling for a fight and would love to take West and USA down - no matter the cost. Pride can be a dangerous thing.

Especially in the USA, I also believe there is a lack of perspective as to how physically large Russia is as a land mass. It may have diversity among its peoples (like all nations), but they have more places to evacuate more people to, with half the USA population.
 
I have always had a revolutionary war attitude towards high ranking officers.
They wear a uniform and if you can kill them it is generally going to improve your war effort.
But USA military helping the Ukraine to kill Russians does not actually improve USA defense. It helps the cause of NATO, it helps USA European allies, it helps the moral standing of the USA towards the suffering Ukraine people. No question to all of that. What it does not actually do is improve the USA defense. It would fit with a department of foreign affairs and U.S. DoS. Making such decisions unilaterally without the say of the representatives of the public continues to be a questionable process in a democratic republic.
 
I respectfully disagree and I continue to believe a negotiated settlement in the Ukraine should be the answer for the sake of everyone. The intelligence I am getting from Russia open sources is the opposite of your perspective, with a "North Korea" like siege mentality building in Russia. Like you, I hope I am wrong. And like you, I also hope that nukes are not on the distant horizon anywhere. But the Russian people feel directly impacted. You attack their television states, their economy, their utilities, etc., and those involved in that escalation have encouraged more of the Russian people to fight. I understand that Russia invaded Ukraine, and therefore... etc.

But psychologically, it is one thing to criticize from abroad and another thing to go after civilians and civilian organizations directly in Russia. Of course, they "won't like it," anymore than the suffering people in the Ukraine invasion do. But it changes the thinking from an "exercise," "foreign war," "bad foreign policy move," etc. to a direct threat to the people. And IMO every one of the Western analysts and media who predict the fall of Russia leadership and its government, will only make the Russian people more determined and intractable on Ukraine. Western analysts and media think that such talk will "demoralize" Russian people, through Information Warfare. I believe they have significantly miscalculated on this, and it will have the exact opposite affect.

To be clear, personally I do not like, I do not support, and I do not agree with Russia and its leadership, in any way. But I believe it is important to understand our enemies as well as our friends. Over the past century, the Russian people have gone through massive changes, world wars that literally attacked and destroyed their mainland (not only an island base), massive deaths, the Communist party fiasco, and one disaster after another. It would be hard to imagine a Russian citizen having a positive view of the past hundred years, and certainly the capitalist view of subjecting Russians to "lack" of things will do some damage to some people. But if we look at history, the Russian people are used to struggle, lack, even suffering. What they are not used to - whether we like it or not - is the idea of giving up on their national pride. I believe the matter of Russian national pride (right or wrong) is something too many Western analysts are underestimating. If the West and USA really want to fight with Russia, I expect Russia will hit first and hit hard. And sad to say, I believe much of their public would support that. I believe there are too many in Russia who are spoiling for a fight and would love to take West and USA down - no matter the cost. Pride can be a dangerous thing.

Especially in the USA, I also believe there is a lack of perspective as to how physically large Russia is as a land mass. It may have diversity among its peoples (like all nations), but they have more places to evacuate more people to, with half the USA population.
I understand and agree with many of your points.
Couple of thoughts, as far as the mysterious fires and explosions going on in Russia. I haven’t concluded where or who these are coming from. I just don’t know.
Regarding my comment at being the end of the Russian federation.
I did not means this would come about because nato invaded Russia if something occurred that would provoke a direct nato response.
What I had in mind was in the context of helping to drive Russia from Ukraine. The outright loss like that would I think weaken Moscow Enough that many of the federated nations thumbed their nose at Moscow.
You might still disagree I just I wanted to clarify.
 
But USA military helping the Ukraine to kill Russians does not actually improve USA defense. It helps the cause of NATO, it helps USA European allies, it helps the moral standing of the USA towards the suffering Ukraine people. No question to all of that. What it does not actually do is improve the USA defense. It would fit with a department of foreign affairs and U.S. DoS. Making such decisions unilaterally without the say of the representatives of the public continues to be a questionable process in a democratic republic.
See your point on the authorization from congress
 
I respectfully disagree and I continue to believe a negotiated settlement in the Ukraine should be the answer for the sake of everyone
Here is the negotiation. "Get your troops out of our country and we'll stop killing them."

Sound reasonable?
 
How can you even trust Russia to hold up their end of the bargin in any deal? All Russia does is lie, lie, lie. You would need the US/NATO to agree to defend Ukraine militarily if Russia tries to go at it again. That won't fly with Russia.
 
How can you even trust Russia to hold up their end of the bargin in any deal? All Russia does is lie, lie, lie. You would need the US/NATO to agree to defend Ukraine militarily if Russia tries to go at it again. That won't fly with Russia.
I wouldn’t assume Ukraine or the United States have been entirely honest either… a major part of war is deception. It’s a big mistake to assume one side is being consistently truthful. Know thine enemy…
 
I wonder, the way the US has been acting lately, have we got intelligence russia is going to attack nato or something? admitting that we helped sink the moskova, maybe this is a way of saying "you think this is bad, just imagine how its gonna be if we are directly involved" in an effort to change their decisionmaking
 
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