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UA-RU-NATO | DISCUSSIONS

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OReid said:
You only have to look at the last half century of america at war to realize this.
We’re more than lethal and great at warfare.
But war with out a clear reason to fight AND definition of what victory means is a inefficient mixture in a representative government. We’ll change our mind eventually.
That’s what the Taliban banked on and that is what Putin is banking on now.

All that said and as much as I dislike his hawkishness Senator Graham is correct.

If we want to effectively discourage China regarding Taiwan then we pretty much have to see this thru with Ukraine and Russia.
It is very hard to have any large electorate understand foreign relations enough to understand this.
Their are consequences to poor choices irregardless be they choices of pacifists or confrontations.
Washington didn’t choose to not support Frances revolutionary’s because he necessarily opposed them.
But because he was just cognizant of the inescapable importance of renewing and keeping trade open with England.
It’s pragmatism in its bases form
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Are yes I'm constantly referred to as pragmatic 😅😅 not here so though🤣😂🤣🤝👍
 
Totality said:
And it seems we will. :) But agree. 👍👍
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For now it does but you know full well that that can change.
Trump was right to call out the Western European nato members for going soft on Russian aggression. He was just too much of a bull in a China shop for many continental leaders. We could have avoided this war. But since we didn’t now we have to engage in it with military supplies and support and see it to the end.
I only hope we do or their will be a bigger mess than it is now.
We’ll have to watch the entire boarder with Russia like we did during the Cold War.
On top of that Russian victory in Ukraine will spread to renewed fighting in and around Serbia and Kosovo.
Im all excited to see that flair up again.
 
Yingyang said:
Are yes I'm constantly referred to as pragmatic 😅😅 not here so though🤣😂🤣🤝👍
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That’s because you only argue one solution in western foreign policy.
Any western intervention is bad.

That and the assumed eventuality Chinese domination in pacific region.
The facts don’t prove that out at this time.
 
OReid said:
But war with out a clear reason to fight AND definition of what victory means is a inefficient mixture in a representative government.
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OReid said:
For now it does but you know full well that that can change.
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We have set out clear goals & definition of victory aka "every inch", not murky goals or victories like the ones in Afghanistan. :)

We all know exactly what victory is in West. Gov. eyes. "Every inch" of Ukraine territory liberated. That's it. Very clear goal & victory conditions laid out.
 
OReid said:
That’s because you only argue one solution in western foreign policy.
Any western intervention is bad.

That and the assumed eventuality Chinese domination in pacific region.
The facts don’t prove that out at this time.
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Patience and time will show more. Even some military people are starting to state the possibility of only Taiwan being the issue is as much a question as it is for the pacific region.
 
Totality said:
We all know exactly what victory is in West. Gov. eyes. "Every inch" of Ukraine territory liberated. That's it. Very clear goal & victory conditions laid out.
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To further add... @OReid

Something very easily sold or explained to the public that is not murky or wishy-washy. Makes it easy to gain long term public support to clearly lay out exactly what the goal is. Every inch of Ukraine liberated/free.

It's simple. But that's what makes it a successful PR campaign with the people and don't really see it ending until its accomplished. Given all the new systems being sent, it seems we are going in for the win anyways.
 
Totality said:
We have set out clear goals & definition of victory aka "every inch", not murky goals or victories like the ones in Afghanistan. :)

We all know exactly what victory is in West. Gov. eyes. "Every inch" of Ukraine territory liberated. That's it. Very clear goal & victory conditions laid out.
Click to expand...
Have we? What is victory in Ukraine?
Gen Milley just last month commented that Ukraine should be realistic and realize they might not meet all their war time goals in near future.

“”At the same time, Ukraine's strategic goals are to liberate all of Ukraine occupied by Russia. There are several hundred thousand Russian troops in the occupied territories of Ukraine. This can be achieved militarily, but probably not in the near future," said the American general.

"So what does that mean? It means that fighting will continue; it will be bloody and it will be difficult. And at some point, both sides will come to a negotiated settlement, or they will come to a military solution at some point," Milley said””
news.yahoo.com

Ukraine is capable of liberating all territories, but not in near future – General Milley

General Mark Milley, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, has said that Ukraine is capable of liberating all the territories occupied by Russia, but this will not happen in the near future. Source: Milley following the results of the meeting of the Contact Group for the Defence of Ukraine...
news.yahoo.com news.yahoo.com

I don’t see the pragmatic war time goals of liberating ALL of Ukraine of Russian troops in the near future.

What is needed is for them to recover to most of their prewar territory.
Negotiate a treaty with boarders. End the disputed ones and bring Ukraine into nato straight aways. This is a win for nato and stability in Eastern Europe.

But I could be wrong maybe the American and European public is up for a 3-4 year long open conflict in Ukraine with Russia.
As I said representative government nations are can be fickle.
There are no guarantees of outcome
 
Totality said:
Makes it easy to gain long term public support to clearly lay out exactly what the goal is. Every inch of Ukraine liberated/free.
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But this war time goal cannot just be pronounced by leaders and a few vocal supporters.
It must be a shared goal. Not just a policy platform.
You know very well this is not a universally accepted goal in the US.
The 2024 election could very well swing on it, and then what?
 
OReid said:
You know very well this is not a universally accepted goal in the US.
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I know the majority accept in GOP/DEM party, even within the radical MAGA party most them do not agree with Trump on Ukraine and will likly cost him the election if he does not change his tone on Ukraine.

Out of the many, many hundreds of representatives in Congress only a very short few, so dramatically few I can count all of them just on my hands that do not support Ukraine. I'm not worried.

Someone in Trump campaign is going to tell the fool to stop alienating a lot of his base and support Ukraine sooner than later if Trump is serious about winning a election.
 
Socom7 said:
Appears to be counting down to midnight, June 13 (local time). I don't have any good guesses as to the significance of that date.
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Probably something else but that date could be for two reasons I had to double check on Wikipedia: 1) Deadliest German air raid on London (WWI) and 2) First V1 launched by Germany, also against England (WWII).
 
OReid said:
You only have to look at the last half century of america at war to realize this.
We’re more than lethal and great at warfare.
But war with out a clear reason to fight AND definition of what victory means is a inefficient mixture in a representative government. We’ll change our mind eventually.
That’s what the Taliban banked on and that is what Putin is banking on now.

All that said and as much as I dislike his hawkishness Senator Graham is correct.

If we want to effectively discourage China regarding Taiwan then we pretty much have to see this thru with Ukraine and Russia.
It is very hard to have any large electorate understand foreign relations enough to understand this.
Their are consequences to poor choices irregardless be they choices of pacifists or confrontations.
Washington didn’t choose to not support Frances revolutionary’s because he necessarily opposed them.
But because he was just cognizant of the inescapable importance of renewing and keeping trade open with England.
It’s pragmatism in its bases form
Click to expand...
Don’t in anyway think I am condemning the continued military aid support to Ukraine, I’m not and do not think it should be frozen.
In fact I would advocate for an acceleration of lethal aid to Ukraine.

All wars have a timer on them for when support for them will fall off.
It’s just more unpredictable in representative governments.
Get in their and recapture as much territory as they can and make it painfully evident enough that Russia simply cannot prevail.

Settle the boarders and admit Ukraine into nato. Give it enough time and the Russian federation will continue to fall apart. Losing more and more influences. Russias loses either way because they’ve publicly stated two goals. Prevent further eastward influence of NATO. That’s failed in demonstrably. Infact their single greatest failure is they put life back into the purposes of the nato alliance.

Secondly it was To restore a Russian friendly government in Ukraine. That’s failed as well there is no way a pro Russian gov will ever exist in Ukraine again.
 
uamcplyr said:
Probablemente otra cosa, pero esa fecha podría deberse a dos razones por las que tuve que verificar dos veces en Wikipedia: 1) el ataque aéreo alemán más letal en Londres (WWI) y 2) el primer V1 lanzado por Alemania, también contra Inglaterra (WWII).
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just psychological warfare
 
uamcplyr said:
This is the first I’m hearing of this, but Ukraine and Russia have apparently exchanged views on what constitutes an acceptable settlement to the war. As expected, the gap is so massive you can drive 1,000 M1s through it. Still, it’s interesting that terms have been handed over.
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If this is the first they've been hearing it, they haven't been listening for the last 400+ days.
 
DEFCON Warning System said:
If this is the first they've been hearing it, they haven't been listening for the last 400+ days.
Click to expand...

Depends though doesn't it. If it is real behind-closed-doors diplomacy. Trying to find a better source with less opinion but the only ones I can see don't look nearly as reputable.
 
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