A Letter To The Church

[Lighthope]

In Revelation, Jesus dictated seven letters to seven churches in Asia.

If Jesus was to dictate a letter today, what would he say?

“I know your works. I know your labour, your charities, your hospitals and schools, your care for the poor, the sick, and the outcast. I know that many among you have endured ridicule, legal pressure, and even violence for my name. You have sent aid across the world, translated the Scriptures into many tongues, and proclaimed my name where it was once unknown. These things are not forgotten.

“But I have this against you.

“You have made peace with the world rather than bearing witness against it. You have sought safety, influence, and approval more than truth. You fear losing relevance more than losing holiness.

“You quarrel endlessly among yourselves, not for righteousness but for power, ideology, and identity. You baptise your political loyalties and call them faith. You devour one another, and the world sees your strife more clearly than your love.

“You debate endlessly about words while neglecting justice, mercy, faithfulness, and self-sacrifice. You defend doctrine with zeal but live it with reluctance.

“You do many things in my name, yet often without love for me. Your worship is polished, your sermons marketed, your leaders celebrated—but your hearts are distracted. You remember my name, but not my voice.

“You excuse what I forbid and condemn what I bless. You redefine sin to avoid repentance and redefine grace to avoid obedience.

“Remember, therefore, from where you have fallen. Repent—not in words only, but in changed direction. Return to humility, to prayer, to obedience when it is costly. Strengthen what remains, for much that you call faith is hollow.

“If you do not repent, I will remove your lampstand.

“To those who overcome—to those who remain faithful not only in belief but in life—I will give life. I will give rest from compromise, truth without fear, and a kingdom not built by human hands.”

 

[william]

In Revelation, Jesus dictated seven letters to seven churches in Asia.

If Jesus was to dictate a letter today, what would he say?

“I know your works. I know your labour, your charities, your hospitals and schools, your care for the poor, the sick, and the outcast. I know that many among you have endured ridicule, legal pressure, and even violence for my name. You have sent aid across the world, translated the Scriptures into many tongues, and proclaimed my name where it was once unknown. These things are not forgotten.

“But I have this against you.

“You have made peace with the world rather than bearing witness against it. You have sought safety, influence, and approval more than truth. You fear losing relevance more than losing holiness.

“You quarrel endlessly among yourselves, not for righteousness but for power, ideology, and identity. You baptise your political loyalties and call them faith. You devour one another, and the world sees your strife more clearly than your love.

“You debate endlessly about words while neglecting justice, mercy, faithfulness, and self-sacrifice. You defend doctrine with zeal but live it with reluctance.

“You do many things in my name, yet often without love for me. Your worship is polished, your sermons marketed, your leaders celebrated—but your hearts are distracted. You remember my name, but not my voice.

“You excuse what I forbid and condemn what I bless. You redefine sin to avoid repentance and redefine grace to avoid obedience.

“Remember, therefore, from where you have fallen. Repent—not in words only, but in changed direction. Return to humility, to prayer, to obedience when it is costly. Strengthen what remains, for much that you call faith is hollow.

“If you do not repent, I will remove your lampstand.

“To those who overcome—to those who remain faithful not only in belief but in life—I will give life. I will give rest from compromise, truth without fear, and a kingdom not built by human hands.”

Wow, my church is going through Revelation right now.

 

[DEFCON Warning System]

my church is going through Revelation right now.

My favourite book.

 

[william]

My favourite book.

Our pastor is a Dr. of Theology for like 40 years and really breaks down the symbols and signs of Revelation very well.

 

[Deleted account]

My favourite book.

It occurs to me that if you actually tried to do the stuff the Bible commands you to do, you would promptly get arrested and convicted of some pretty serious crimes.

This is why the Church doesn't actually want you to read the Bible - even though they will never admit it. Instead, it wants to you to listen to excerpts, carefully selected and interpreted by clergymen. That's the only way this system can work - and it has the added benefit of giving the Church a lot of power.

 

[DEFCON Warning System]

This is why the Church doesn't actually want you to read the Bible

I've been to churches that go through the Bible verse by verse. I like those.

 

[Deleted account]

I've been to churches that go through the Bible verse by verse. I like those.

I'm curious, and have several follow-up questions:

• What denomination?
• Both Testaments?
• Standard Sunday service or some kind of special event?
• How long did the whole process take?

 

[DEFCON Warning System]

What denomination?

It was non-denominational.

Both Testaments?

Yeah, they did go through the OT.

Standard Sunday service or some kind of special event?

Standard. Though I think most of the OT was covered in a bible study group.

How long did the whole process take?

A while.

 

[Deleted account]

It was non-denominational.

OK, but presumably the thing took place in a church of some sort, and whoever runs that church had to agree to it - which is actually what I'm asking about.

I know these things happen, and that generally the West is a bit more, shall we say, "Bible-friendly" than the rest of Christendom - due to Lutheran influences - but I still propose that if you sat through all that, you are part of a small minority. Globally, only about a quarter of Christians claim to have read the Bible (with the actual figure likely lower, because for many it's just the New Testament, while some others can be expected to say they did when they actually didn't) - and coming from a deeply Christian country, I can state with confidence that the national Church is not at all interested in increasing that figure.

Since you claim familiarity with the entire Scripture - if you're willing to satiate my curiosity (I know it's really difficult for a religious person to be discussing religion with an abomination such as myself) - how do you rationalize away or otherwise mentally work around the inhumane commandments that abound (primarily in the Old Testament)...?

 

[DEFCON Warning System]

(I know it's really difficult for a religious person to be discussing religion with an abomination such as myself)

lol

how do you rationalize away or otherwise mentally work around the inhumane commandments that abound

Can you be specific? Which ones bother you?

 

[william]

I've been to churches that go through the Bible verse by verse. I like those.

This what my church does. Our pastor reads directly from the Bible and teaches us common folk about what was read based on a lifetime of Theology study. Like I stated, 40 plus years. Very similar to Baptist doctrine.

 

[StormyCat]

Without putting words in Socom's mouth....I think he means the 613 commandments of Old Testament law. (not the 10 on the tablet most people think of when thinking of commandments) Here is an article that may help. Matthew 22:34-40: If loving God and neighbor is the greatest commandment, why does the Old Testament contain many laws that appear unloving or harsh?

 

[Deleted account]

Can you be specific? Which ones bother you?

Too many to list. Some of the more egregious ones:

• Stoning for both parties in adultery, and for a woman not proven a virgin before marriage (Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 22:20-21)
• Death for striking or cursing a father or mother (Exodus 21:15)
• Allowing permanent slavery for foreigners (Leviticus 25:44-46)
• Execution for working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:14)

As I said - trying to obey such rules in the modern day would result in serious criminal charges, and I presume (and certainly hope) that you don't actually do any of that stuff. But, on the other hand the Bible is the Word of God, so if you identify as a Christian, you are arguably required to do what is written - and you certainly don't get to pick and choose your commandments. Hence the contradiction.

 

[GBS61]

The Bible...lol
When things go wrong, they pull out the Bible.

 

[DEFCON Warning System]

Stoning for both parties in adultery and for a woman not proven a virgin before marriage (Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 22:20-21)

So one should go unpunished? Isn't that inequitable?

Purity was highly valued. We don't value it as much today.

• Death for striking or cursing a father or mother (Exodus 21:15)

Fifth commandment

• Allowing permanent slavery for foreigners (Leviticus 25:44-46)

Slavery back then is not slavery as it is today. God's commands for slaves were very liberal.

• Execution for working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:14)

Fourth commandment.

God is a holy God. He didn't tolerate wickedness in Israel and made sure to cut off evil.

 

[Deleted account]

So one should go unpunished? Isn't that inequitable?
Purity was highly valued. We don't value it as much today.
Fifth commandment
Slavery back then is not slavery as it is today. God's commands for slaves were very liberal.
Fourth commandment.
God is a holy God. He didn't tolerate wickedness in Israel and made sure to cut off evil.

Yeah; pretty much what I expected. I'm gonna interpret this weird non-answer as "I would rather not talk about this stuff."

Thanks for trying, though.

 

[DEFCON Warning System]

I'm gonna interpret this weird non-answer as "I would rather not talk about this stuff."

I gave you an answer. Did you not like it? Was it not what you expected?

 

[Deleted account]

I gave you an answer. Did you not like it? Was it not what you expected?

Well, my question was - how do you reconcile the fact that the Scripture commands you to perform certain acts with the fact that you (presumably) have no intention of performing these acts. Let's take one example:

• Death for striking or cursing a father or mother (Exodus 21:15)

To which you simply replied with "Fifth commandment". That's - obviously - not an answer to the question I posed.

First of all, it is not even clear what you mean by "Fifth commandment", as different religious traditions divide the seventeen verses of Exodus 20:1-17 and Deuteronomy 5:4-21 into commandments in distinct ways, and assign differing numbers to those commandments. For the purposes of this discussion I will assume you are not referring to the Augustinian division (followed by Catholics and Lutherans, where the Fifth commandment is traditionally formulated by "Thou shalt not kill"), but instead to the Protestant tradition, where it instead states "Honor your father and mother". Fair enough - but what about Exodus 21:15? Shall I take your reply as "yes, I believe a child who disrespects or assaults their parent deserves death"? I certainly bloody hope that's not the case - but I can't tell, since you deliberately decided to be cryptic and evasive in formulating your reply.

More broadly - I don't really feel it's productive to keep roasting you like this, so if you would rather not reply, we can put this discussion to rest. I certainly don't have a problem with personal religiousness - in fact, I know a lot of people who are both religious and good human beings at the same time. It's only when people say "You must not do this because it offends my god!" that I reach for my (metaphorical) gun.

 

[DEFCON Warning System]

but what about Exodus 21:15? Shall I take your reply as "yes, I believe a child who disrespects or assaults their parent deserves death"? I certainly bloody hope that's not the case - but I can't tell, since you deliberately decided to be cryptic and evasive in formulating your reply.

It is a harsh penalty, but you present it without context.

Simply mouthing off to your mum doesn't have the child dragged out of the city and stoned.

Biblically, it was conscious, continual rebellion. "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son, who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother..." (Deuteronomy 21:18)

This is not a single act. This is your problem child, the one who continually ends up in jail.

We are not talking seven year olds.

I don't really feel it's productive to keep roasting you like this

Trust me, no one thinks you're roasting me.

 

[Deleted account]

It is a harsh penalty, but you present it without context.
Simply mouthing off to your mum doesn't have the child dragged out of the city and stoned.
Biblically, it was conscious, continual rebellion. "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son, who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother..." (Deuteronomy 21:18)
This is not a single act. This is your problem child, the one who continually ends up in jail.
We are not talking seven year olds.

Ah, I see. So you explain away the harsh commandment by inventing quite a few additional conditions (never mentioned in the Bible), so that it does not sound so harsh after all.

And yet, is it not written that...

• See that you do everything I command you; do not add to it or subtract from it. (Deuteronomy 12:32)
• Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. / Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. (Proverbs 30:5-6)
• But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a curse! (Galatians 1:8-9)
• For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:18)
• You must not add to or subtract from what I command you, so that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I am giving you. (Deuteronomy 4:2)
• He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:16)