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A Letter To The Church

The perpetual mistake made by many on both sides is they seek to use the text as a political or cultural cudgel to cast blame.
Rather than treating it a historical document and text outlining a faith.

If you don’t agree with the text you are free to do that.
No one here in my memory has ever attacked or ridiculed atheists as brain dead doomed to hell. Nor demanded others must obey the commandments of God.

Choosing to use your dislike or hatred of it or is followers. Is no different than casting stones at others who’s beliefs or world
view you seem to despise. Like men with long beards and uncut hair.

Everyone here has a world view a moral basis. Doing the same thing you say you despise to ridicule or silence others does not elevate the position you are trying to make.
 
Socom7 said:
Ah, I see. So you explain away the harsh commandment by inventing quite a few additional conditions (never mentioned in the Bible), so that it does not sound so harsh after all.
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I literally quoted the bible for you.

Or are you talking about not stoning seven year olds. That's from those who studied ancient history.

Socom7 said:
And yet, is it not written that...
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What do you claim has been changed?
 
DEFCON Warning System said:
I literally quoted the bible for you.
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Mhm; along with a bunch of additional claims that you paperclipped to that quote (that stoning should only be reserved for "problem children" who "continually end up in jail", and that it does not apply to "seven year olds", etc.)

Even if all of that were in the Bible (which it isn't), it would still be an inhumane thing to do - and if there exists a higher being that demands it, then it's unimaginably cruel and should not be worshipped in any case.

DEFCON Warning System said:
Or are you talking about not stoning seven year olds. That's from those who studied ancient history.
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I don't know anything about that; we're strictly focusing on the Scripture here. I assume claims from "those who studied ancient history" do not trump the Word of God. Or do they?
 
Socom7 said:
it would still be an inhumane thing to do - and if there exists a higher being that demands it, then it's unimaginably cruel and should not be worshipped in any case.
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Well, that is certainly your right to think that.
Socom7 said:
I don't know anything about that; we're strictly focusing on the Scripture here. I assume claims from "those who studied ancient history" do not trump the Word of God. Or do they?
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I did quote Deuteronomy 21:18 for you. "stubborn and rebellious son". What does that mean? The Bible does not give a list of "<x> and <y> == 'stubborn and rebellious'". So we turn to history and culture.
 
Socom7 said:
Even if all of that were in the Bible (which it isn't), it would still be an inhumane thing to do - and if there exists a higher being that demands it, then it's unimaginably cruel and should not be worshipped in any case.
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So across the ancient world in ancient from China to Mesopotamia to Vedic India punishments ranged from fines for minor crimes to castration mutilation, banishment and death.
In the new world tribal groups were much the same punishing with beatings, nose notching for adulterous women. The worst crimes were met with banishment. Survival alone in the wild was equivalent to a death sentence.

The selection of stoning served two purposes. First everyone witnessed the result of law breaking. Then second it literally placed the responsibility of that persons death into the entire village or tribe. Especially the accusers and judges.

So rail at the disparity of the Israelites and their God. You’re railing at the history of humanity as well.

The irony is this moral judgement being used today to condemn ancient cultures and faiths. Owes its existence and form to that same faith you seek to condemn.

Virtually all modern concepts of morality and justice in the west were not born from a vacuum with the emergence of agnostic humanism or the age of reason. There cultural roots and moral code of justice are rooted in among other things the western judeo- Christian legal and moral code.

Haters are gonna hate
 
Publius said:
So rail at the disparity of the Israelites and their God. You’re railing at the history of humanity as well.
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Not so much at the history of humanity as at human nature. We're (1) much nastier beings than we pretend to be, and (2) great at making up flimsy excuses for our nastiness. Cue "God-given commandments"...

Publius said:
Virtually all modern concepts of morality and justice in the west were not born from a vacuum with the emergence of agnostic humanism or the age of reason. There cultural roots and moral code of justice are rooted in among other things the western judeo- Christian legal and moral code.
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I only agree with the first part of that statement. The very reason the West succeeded globally in the modern age was because it was the only civilization in the history of the world that stopped taking its religion seriously. That's what enabled the "age of reason" you're mentioning. And then - of course - the Church showed up and said: "no no no, it's all because of our moral code".

That's actually worse than claiming credit for someone else's success - it is, in fact, claiming credit for something you actively tried to prevent and derail. And that, in turn, is unethical in itself. Hence by beef with institutional religion - Western or otherwise.
 
Socom7 said:
Not so much at the history of humanity as at human nature. We're (1) much nastier beings than we pretend to be, and (2) great at making up flimsy excuses for our nastiness. Cue "God-given commandments"...


I only agree with the first part of that statement. The very reason the West succeeded globally in the modern age was because it was the only civilization in the history of the world that stopped taking its religion seriously. That's what enabled the "age of reason" you're mentioning. And then - of course - the Church showed up and said: "no no no, it's all because of our moral code".

That's actually worse than claiming credit for someone else's success - it is, in fact, claiming credit for something you actively tried to prevent and derail. And that, in turn, is unethical in itself. Hence by beef with institutional religion - Western or otherwise.
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again who here has said that institutional religious must be imposed without question or thought.
This is a centuries dead argument.
You assign no value to the religious or moral heritage of enlightened Europe.
Once again claiming the agnostic humanism erupted out of nothing.
That right there is the failure of your argument.
Something from nothing which does not exist in nature or evolutionary social development. You’re literally standing on the shoulders of 3 millennia of thought and legal experience.

Protip in 100-200 years most of the legal and morals premises you hold as sacrosanct will be mocked as well. There is no one on the Church or the synagogue calling for adulterous people to be stoned or blasphemy to be a death penalty.
Yet is is brought up repeatedly like is a common practice today.
Such a manipulation of facts.
I believe in god as long as no one can speak publicly about their understanding or faith.
Your not here to discuss others understanding of God. You’re here to ridicule and belittle, nothing more and nothing less.

Pearls before swine I’ll waste no more time
 
Publius said:
I believe in god as long as no one can speak publicly about their understanding or faith.
Your not here to discuss others understanding of God. You’re here to ridicule and belittle, nothing more and nothing less.

Pearls before swine I’ll waste no more time
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Well, as long as we have you to explain to everyone what it is I came here for... *oink oink* 😁
 
Socom7 said:
Too many to list. Some of the more egregious ones:
  • Stoning for both parties in adultery, and for a woman not proven a virgin before marriage (Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 22:20-21)
  • Death for striking or cursing a father or mother (Exodus 21:15)
  • Allowing permanent slavery for foreigners (Leviticus 25:44-46)
  • Execution for working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:14)
As I said - trying to obey such rules in the modern day would result in serious criminal charges, and I presume (and certainly hope) that you don't actually do any of that stuff. But, on the other hand the Bible is the Word of God, so if you identify as a Christian, you are arguably required to do what is written I'm pretty sure Jesus Christ changed the law of the Old Testament with the New Covenant.- and you certainly don't get to pick and choose your commandments. Hence the contradiction. 💁‍♂️ I believe the law of the Old Testament was meant to show that mankind is sinful and never could obey all of them no matter how much you tried.
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www.christianity.com

What Is the New Covenant in Jesus Christ? Bible Verses and Meaning

Read What Is the New Covenant in Jesus Christ? Bible Verses and Meaning by Christianity.com Editorial Staff and more articles about Bible and Wiki on Christianity.com
www.christianity.com www.christianity.com
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biblestudyforyou.com

30 Powerful bible verses about stoning adulterers (Full Commentary) - Bible Study For You

Today we will talk about bible verses about stoning adulterers. Many Christians do not know what this means. This topic can stir some strong feelings and
biblestudyforyou.com biblestudyforyou.com
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I think stoning would be a great motivation to not put ones self at risk of stoning. Personally I never could figure out where my friends (and there have been many) found the time or energy to have an affair. I rush home to be with my best friend.
 
IMO and what my faith believes , teaches and confesses is there are a lot of things in the old testament God commanded, certain foods to eat and not eat, how to cook them, sacrifices for forgiveness of sins, don't do this don't do that, do this do that etc. etc.

many of these things are not needed anymore, we don't go sacrificing goats anymore, and put them on the alter of the Lord, Why? because the sacrifice was made and the law fulfilled, through Jesus. he was the sacrificial lamb, Yes, the commandments remain, because those are different, with a new covenant made through Jesus the commandments show us how to treat God and how we should treat one another. The commandments act as guide and mirror, they show us our sin and guide us and keep us on the right path.

As for reasons why such old testament rules were ordered by God I am not sure, BUT many of those were for the people in those times, a new covenant was made with God through Christ Jesus, We can look back and have faith that through grace Jesus saved us, before Jesus the people believed that one day the messiah WOULD come, Christians today see it that Jesus did come, fulfilled the prophecy, made satisfaction on our behalf, and a new covenant was formed.

this probably does not give the answer you seek, and probably sounds like a cop-out, but we don't stone people cause when Jesus came things changed, with his action his sacrifice a new covenant was made, his teachings override certain things because he was fulfilling everything, now we submit to government authorities as ordered by him.

I am by far no expert, and I cannot give you every answer or any answer, I ask these same questions, I wonder too, I sin, I fail, if I "examine myself I will find nothing but sin and death", but I hold to the promise that Jesus died for me and made satisfaction for me, that is the foundation of my faith, "Grace alone", "Here I stand I can do no other"
 
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