President Obama and Erdogan held a Telephone Call Regarding Russian Jet Downing.

[Zanting]

Huh, yes, they are human. They deserve to be treated humanely and you cannot contest this in any way.

A quick death is humane.

Godwin point awarded to Zanting! (By the way, it's not a good thing)

It is the closest thing that he will recognize to see the fallacy in his logic. Not that I like using Godwin's Law.

 

[DirtyDevil69]

What are you talking about this has nothing to do with video games. How can you support that with who you are; like for real man, it makes no sense at all. They have used that for their own extremist purposes to the point of it losing relevance from over half a century ago or more. They incite the Takbir in violence and if you cannot see what's really going on I don't know what to say.

Just because someone says Allahu Akbar it doesnt mean that they are going to blow us up. Its a religious saying and it always will be, im not one for religion but im going to respect it.

Neither am I religious but you are incorrect to a great margin with this; but if you want to fester in such beliefs, use your logic and go get a big Swastika and go march around DC right now.

Im not sure how to process what you just said, i can only reply with. you just said this to a Marine, and i doubt you understand why someone would join the military, you probably don't understand the relationships you get when you go threw basic or get deployed. The people you meet are great. You...i don't know what to say to you. Ive brought up the relationship thing because what you just said their was the absolute opposite of what ive done with my life and what im willing to do with it. Im willing to die for DC, the symbol of democracy. i still don't know how to process what you have just said. I can only hope someone can talk some since into you. Maybe one of the Admins can talk sense into you, im done with you and this conversation.

 

[DirtyDevil69]

Mayhap we should steer back toward the subject, yes?

i agree.

 

[Zanting]

Mayhap we should steer back toward the subject, yes?

Agreed. But if people do not speak in a neutral sense this is bound to happen.

Im not sure how to process what you just said, i can only reply with. you just said this to a Marine, and i doubt you understand why someone would join the military, you probably don't understand the relationships you get when you go threw basic or get deployed. The people you meet are great. You...i don't know what to say to you. Ive brought up the relationship thing because what you just said their was the absolute opposite of what ive done with my life and what im willing to do with it. Im willing to die for DC, the symbol of democracy. i still don't know how to process what you have just said. I can only hope someone can talk some since into you. Maybe one of the Admins can talk sense into you, im done with you and this conversation.

I don't want to offend you and I have family in the military too, I'm just trying to get you to see just how ridiculous your PoV is right now, sorry.

EDIT: I have no wish to be harsh in sentiments any further with you, I hope you can process what I said and understand what I meant, if not so be it.

 

[TheChrome]

Turkey would be turned into a glass crater; and who knows, we might find out soon enough tonight.

here maybe you should look at this

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=turkey

That is a good point, and something many overlook. Russia is on pins and needles for the fact that their assets in Syria are simply insufficient to defend themselves in a flash conflict.

Fact: In a flash conflict Russia's Syrian assets would be knocked out in an hour or two. Excluding NATO other than Turkey, the combined air forces of Turkey, Israel, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt outmatch the Russian air force. Other than nukes, Russia would have no chance initially until they could transport huge amounts of troops to the area which would be weeks. Also Israel has nukes and delivery systems to strike anywhere in Russia.

When you think about the area in terms of potential players and assets, Russia is pretty small in the scheme of things.

Edit: While the talk is on Turkey right now, Israel may have conducted another strike in Syria:

Unconfirmed Syrian media reports said Tuesday that Israel carried out some four airstrikes on Syrian regime and Hezbollah positions in the area of Syria’s Qalamoun mountains on Monday night.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/report-israel-strikes-hezbollah-positions-in-syria-killing-13/

 

[YARS24]

I know what I am about to post is off-topic
But I can't hold it
turkey was , is and will be SUNNI = snackbar-ing murderous fiends

I come from a little place on the map that 99% of people would have hard time finding - namely Bulgaria .

Lemme tell you this - we have been ENSLAVED by the turks ( idgaf about the current histErical representation of the events - I call it what it is ) for 500 years
The hatred for all that is not them has festered for almost 140 years in the turks - since RUSSIA came to liberate my country and the Balkan peninsula from the OTTOMAN torture in 1878 .

There was a little news piece by Russia Today back in 2013 on rising youth movements in turkey that WANT a UNIFIED Neo Ottoman empire from the Karpati to whatever they have in their rear end (turkey -Syria border)

Back on topic - whoever thinks that this will blow over , needs to visit a doctor .
Putin is between a very big rock and an impossibly hard place .
Russians already expressed what they feel about turks and what they have done in a spontaneous protest in front of the turkish embassy in Moscow
Putin has to listen to the will of his people , or they won't stay his for very longer.
Also , if one is to look on the situation more globally - China is well aware that if Russia is done by the Sa-Tanato all-lie-ence , they are next .

True, Russia might not have big population(aka manpower) , but China damn certainly does .

Just keep in mind - China ships also traveled to Syrian waters in early October

https://www.rt.com/news/316705-china-syria-isis-fight/

 

[ljheidel]

The root of this issue is ISIS. Turkey shooting down a Russian jet may be a single incident, but it wouldn't have happened if Russia wasn't fighting ISIS.

Whoa. I don't want to interrupt anybody's pissing match, but this doesn't seem correct.

It seems to me that the "Global War on Terrah" (currently playing: ISIS and their #1 hit "Aloha Snackbar" in its 73rd week at the top of the charts) is a convenient pretext for Russia to be in Syria without receiving worldwide condemnation for backing Dr. Fivehead (a/k/a Bashar al-Assad.) If they hit ISIS targets, it seems to be because they just happened to be there, or as a PR stunt. The reason they're really there is to expand their sphere of influence and protect their assets in the region.

All of the players have different goals, motives, ambitions and allegiances, both current and historical. The Turks don't like Fivehead, support the Resistance (and perhaps, at least popularly, ISIS) and historically don't like the Russians. Even though they may be nominal allies, in reality, they're far from it. The US is a part of NATO and thus an obligate ally of Turkey and would also like to see Fivehead gone, but is ambivalent about the Resistance and really, really (at least publicly) wants ISIS gone. But, the US doesn't desire a tangle with Russia. Fivehead just wants to stay in his palaces with his trophy wife and exercise brutal dictatorial power while keeping that stupid, deer-in-the-headlights look on his fetal alcohol syndrome-esque face. He doesn't care about much else, it seems. But, the list goes on...Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Israel, etc. Nobody is on the same page here, and I fear that's what makes this situation so unpredictable, volatile and dangerous.

 

[TheChrome]

The root of this issue is ISIS. Turkey shooting down a Russian jet may be a single incident, but it wouldn't have happened if Russia wasn't fighting ISIS.

Whoa. I don't want to interrupt anybody's pissing match, but this doesn't seem correct.

It seems to me that the "Global War on Terrah" (currently playing: ISIS and their #1 hit "Aloha Snackbar" in its 73rd week at the top of the charts) is a convenient pretext for Russia to be in Syria without receiving worldwide condemnation for backing Dr. Fivehead (a/k/a Bashar al-Assad.) If they hit ISIS targets, it seems to be because they just happened to be there, or as a PR stunt. The reason they're really there is to expand their sphere of influence and protect their assets in the region.

All of the players have different goals, motives, ambitions and allegiances, both current and historical. The Turks don't like Fivehead, support the Resistance (and perhaps, at least popularly, ISIS) and historically don't like the Russians. Even though they may be nominal allies, in reality, they're far from it. The US is a part of NATO and thus an obligate ally of Turkey and would also like to see Fivehead gone, but is ambivalent about the Resistance and really, really (at least publicly) wants ISIS gone. But, the US doesn't desire a tangle with Russia. Fivehead just wants to stay in his palaces with his trophy wife and exercise brutal dictatorial power while keeping that stupid, deer-in-the-headlights look on his fetal alcohol syndrome-esque face. He doesn't care about much else, it seems. But, the list goes on...Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Israel, etc. Nobody is on the same page here, and I fear that's what makes this situation so unpredictable, volatile and dangerous.

I would say YES and NO. Many parties support different sub-groups, but it boils down to this:

US, Turkey, Israel, Jordan, Saudi Arabia = Assad must go
Russia, Syria, Iran = Assad must stay

 

[ljheidel]

I would say YES and NO. Many parties support different sub-groups, but it boils down to this:

US, Turkey, Israel, Jordan, Saudi Arabia = Assad must go
Russia, Syria, Iran = Assad must stay

Agreed vis a vis Assad, but remember, the publicly stated reason that we're all supposedly in there, holding hands, singing Kumbya and bombing the shit out of a bunch of desert is ISIS. Everybody says ISIS must go, but it appears to me that their real objectives and level of commitment (including those of the US) are suspect, questionable, and basically opaque in may cases.

 

[TheChrome]

I would say YES and NO. Many parties support different sub-groups, but it boils down to this:

US, Turkey, Israel, Jordan, Saudi Arabia = Assad must go
Russia, Syria, Iran = Assad must stay

Agreed vis a vis Assad, but remember, the publicly stated reason that we're all supposedly in there, holding hands, singing Kumbya and bombing the shit out of a bunch of desert is ISIS. Everybody says ISIS must go, but it appears to me that their real objectives and level of commitment (including those of the US) are suspect, questionable, and basically opaque in may cases.

All sides are questionable. Is the the US bombing the crud out of ISIS? Or are they dropping bombs in open desert? Russia claims to be bombing ISIS, but they have mostly been bombing Saudi/US backed rebel groups. There probably is a truth outside the information that we know.

 

[Macanan]

I would say YES and NO. Many parties support different sub-groups, but it boils down to this:

US, Turkey, Israel, Jordan, Saudi Arabia = Assad must go
Russia, Syria, Iran = Assad must stay

Agreed vis a vis Assad, but remember, the publicly stated reason that we're all supposedly in there, holding hands, singing Kumbya and bombing the shit out of a bunch of desert is ISIS. Everybody says ISIS must go, but it appears to me that their real objectives and level of commitment (including those of the US) are suspect, questionable, and basically opaque in may cases.

All sides are questionable. Is the the US bombing the crud out of ISIS? Or are they dropping bombs in open desert? Russia claims to be bombing ISIS, but they have mostly been bombing Saudi/US backed rebel groups. There probably is a truth outside the information that we know.

The Saudi/US backed rebel groups are the ISIS

 

[TheChrome]

Agreed vis a vis Assad, but remember, the publicly stated reason that we're all supposedly in there, holding hands, singing Kumbya and bombing the shit out of a bunch of desert is ISIS. Everybody says ISIS must go, but it appears to me that their real objectives and level of commitment (including those of the US) are suspect, questionable, and basically opaque in may cases.

All sides are questionable. Is the the US bombing the crud out of ISIS? Or are they dropping bombs in open desert? Russia claims to be bombing ISIS, but they have mostly been bombing Saudi/US backed rebel groups. There probably is a truth outside the information that we know.

The Saudi/US backed rebel groups are the ISIS

There have been those claims, but more likely the supported parties are fighting against ISIS and Assad such as:

Islamic Front - Saudi Backed
YPG - Not liked by Turkey
Free Syrian Army - Backed by Turkey, US, Saudi Arabia, Qatar
Ahrar Al Sham - Backed by Turkey, Qatar, Kuwait
Jaish Al Islam - Backed by Turkey, Saudi Arabia
Jabhat Thuwar Souria - Backed by the US, Saudi Arabia, Turkey
Syrian Martyr's Brigade - Backed by Saudi Arabia
Jaish Al Mujahideen - Backed by the US, Qatar

Al Nusra (Al Quida), and ISIS are fighting against the above parties AND the Syrian Government.

 

[Worldwatcher]

I know what I am about to post is off-topic
But I can't hold it
turkey was , is and will be SUNNI = snackbar-ing murderous fiends

I come from a little place on the map that 99% of people would have hard time finding - namely Bulgaria .

Lemme tell you this - we have been ENSLAVED by the turks ( idgaf about the current histErical representation of the events - I call it what it is ) for 500 years
The hatred for all that is not them has festered for almost 140 years in the turks - since RUSSIA came to liberate my country and the Balkan peninsula from the OTTOMAN torture in 1878 .

There was a little news piece by Russia Today back in 2013 on rising youth movements in turkey that WANT a UNIFIED Neo Ottoman empire from the Karpati to whatever they have in their rear end (turkey -Syria border)

Back on topic - whoever thinks that this will blow over , needs to visit a doctor .
Putin is between a very big rock and an impossibly hard place .
Russians already expressed what they feel about turks and what they have done in a spontaneous protest in front of the turkish embassy in Moscow
Putin has to listen to the will of his people , or they won't stay his for very longer.
Also , if one is to look on the situation more globally - China is well aware that if Russia is done by the Sa-Tanato all-lie-ence , they are next .

True, Russia might not have big population(aka manpower) , but China damn certainly does .

Just keep in mind - China ships also traveled to Syrian waters in early October

https://www.rt.com/news/316705-china-syria-isis-fight/

If events over 100 years ago were still taken into account by governments today, how come Germany and France are allies?

Onto another point.
Every nation and party involved in the fight against Daesh has an ulterior motive. No nation (apart from maybe Iraq) wants to purely see the eradication of Daesh:
Turkey wants Syria's land & resources, so they allow for foreign jihadi fighters to pass through it's borders, making it easier to clean up the previously strong Syrian military (although now Turkey is possibly far over their heads).
Russia wants to keep Syria as a naval port and resource supplier, and counter the USA.
The USA wants to keep Russia and Syria at bay whilst attempting to exert military dominance.
Saudi Arabia and Iran wants to keep it's fighters fighting the other's sect of Islam.
Syria wants to survive.
Iraq wants to survive.
Israel wants to prevent Iran from obtaining nukes whilst staying out of the conflict.
All smaller surrounding nations to Syria, such as Jordan and Lebanon want to keep the conflict out of their nations.

Of course there are more motives and resons, but this is an overview.

 

[ljheidel]

If events over 100 years ago were still taken into account by governments today, how come Germany and France are allies?

Money.

Russia wants to keep Syria as a naval port and resource supplier, and counter the USA.

The world sees a challenge. Putin sees an opportunity. He wants Syria for himself (or at least his exclusive influence) along with the parts of Iraq currently controlled by ISIS/Da'esh (and the rest of Iraq in the long term.) I believe his plan is to prop up Fivehead, defeat the Rebels, and then mop up the rest of ISIS/Da'esh once Syria has a functioning (puppet) government.

This would be much easier if he didn't have to concern himself with the US and other allies who are concerned about little things like "collateral damage" and "civilian casualties" and "war crimes." So, I kind of wonder if Russia wasn't trying to pull Turkey or one of the allies (or at least hoping they would be pulled) into direct confrontation in order to have justification to implement a "no-fly zone" over Syria so that they and Fivehead's military could operate with impunity.

(I wonder how long it will be before they return the chemical weapons they were holding for him.)

 

[Worldwatcher]

If events over 100 years ago were still taken into account by governments today, how come Germany and France are allies?

Money.

Russia wants to keep Syria as a naval port and resource supplier, and counter the USA.

The world sees a challenge. Putin sees an opportunity. He wants Syria for himself (or at least his exclusive influence) along with the parts of Iraq currently controlled by ISIS/Da'esh (and the rest of Iraq in the long term.) I believe his plan is to prop up Fivehead, defeat the Rebels, and then mop up the rest of ISIS/Da'esh once Syria has a functioning (puppet) government.

This would be much easier if he didn't have to concern himself with the US and other allies who are concerned about little things like "collateral damage" and "civilian casualties" and "war crimes." So, I kind of wonder if Russia wasn't trying to pull Turkey or one of the allies (or at least hoping they would be pulled) into direct confrontation in order to have justification to implement a "no-fly zone" over Syria so that they and Fivehead's military could operate with impunity.

(I wonder how long it will be before they return the chemical weapons they were holding for him.)

I don't think Russia will outright annex it's only Mediterranean ally. I'm doubtful of even a puppet government.

 

[TheChrome]

If events over 100 years ago were still taken into account by governments today, how come Germany and France are allies?

Stranger things happen. Look at World War 1:

King George V – Grandson of Queen Victoria - England
Kaiser Wilhelm II - Grandson of Queen Victoria - Germany
Tsar Nicholas II – 1st cousin of Wilhelm II & George V - Russia

Family Feud? I don't know, history repeats itself.

 

[Worldwatcher]

If events over 100 years ago were still taken into account by governments today, how come Germany and France are allies?

Stranger things happen. Look at World War 1:

King George V – Grandson of Queen Victoria - England
Kaiser Wilhelm II - Grandson of Queen Victoria - Germany
Tsar Nicholas II – 1st cousin of Wilhelm II & George V - Russia

Family Feud? I don't know, history repeats itself.

However Obama isn't the cousin of Putin, and the royal families of old have (unfortunately) lost most / all of their power.
Today's lords, princes and kings are pop stars and the famous I'm afraid...

 

[ljheidel]

I don't think Russia will outright annex it's only Mediterranean ally. I'm doubtful of even a puppet government.

Some say 'puppet government' others say "a friendship (based) on historic moral and strategic ties." Tah-mayto/toe-mahto.

 

[Worldwatcher]

I don't think Russia will outright annex it's only Mediterranean ally. I'm doubtful of even a puppet government.

Some say 'puppet government' others say "a friendship (based) on historic moral and strategic ties." Tah-mayto/toe-mahto.

Syria isn't much of a government itself, only a few major cities and Damascus remain under control of the regime.
All Russia is doing (thus far) is launching air strikes from Latakia, not really governing what's left of the nation.
Whilst I'm not discounting your point entirely, the alliance between the USA and Australia is "a friendship (based) on historic moral and strategic ties" yes the U.S. has no say in my country's affairs.

 

[TheChrome]

However Obama isn't the cousin of Putin, and the royal families of old have (unfortunately) lost most / all of their power.
Today's lords, princes and kings are pop stars and the famous I'm afraid...

Yes, the point is that Kaiser Wilhelm was visiting his cousin King George in England when the war broke out. He sent a message to his army not to attack, and the response was: Do you want us to give the territory back?

This shows that sometimes world leaders are puppets to events, and sometimes cannot stop the process taking place.