UA-RU-NATO | DISCUSSIONS (Closed)

[Publius]

Non of which relates to my comment. Ukraine is the largest European country with decades of opportunity to join eu and nato and build their military knowing their position. You know why it is in the position it is now. You know why the west wouldn't let Ukraine join previously. You know alot of what and why before Russian action commenced. You know alot you don't let on because you probably are at odds with it yourself. You find it easier to blame Putin than to admit Ukraine faults as to why it is in the position it is. If Ukraine knowing its position before Russian acts , why didn't they join eu? Or even Nato? Why didn't they increase their military capacity and capabilities knowing they wouldn't be accepted in such clubs before such actions took place? Alot of why and alot of inconvenient answers i suppose.

Ukraine didn’t join before 2014 because they didn’t want two. They had a Russian supported leader who like Lushenko did what he was told.

Then their was the revolution which drove the Russian puppet back to Russia.
Very quickly after that Russia sent little green men into east Ukraine and Crimea.
The two subsequent elected Ukrainian governments were not able to apply to join nato BECAUSE they had a open disputed boarder with Russia.

So no Ukraine didn’t freely join nato when they could because they were still under the boot of a Russia till 2014. And when they chose a different government in two separate nationwide elections they couldn’t apply for nato membership because Russia did a soft coup in the east and Crimea to disqualify Ukraine for nato membership.

So yes I do know why Ukraine didn’t join nato for all those years.

As far as joining now. Technically according to nato rules they can’t and you know that.

But after all the nato aid and assistance and Russia refusing to withdraw.
Well why the fuck not now?

“but oh of we’re not careful Russias going to use nukes”

at least that’s what every body mews about repeatedly.

So why not sweep them up into nato and move nato troops and equipment into Ukraine.
And call the short little fuckers bet!

I mean if we’re all going to die anyway might as well go out on our feet.

 

[Yingyang]

Ukraine didn’t join before 2014 because they didn’t want two. They had a Russian supported leader who like Lushenko did what he was told.

Then their was the revolution which drove the Russian puppet back to Russia.
Very quickly after that Russia sent little green men into east Ukraine and Crimea.
The two subsequent elected Ukrainian governments were not able to apply to join nato BECAUSE they had a open disputed boarder with Russia.

So no Ukraine didn’t freely join nato when they could because they were still under the boot of a Russia till 2014. And when they chose a different government in two separate nationwide elections they couldn’t apply for nato membership because Russia did a soft coup in the east and Crimea to disqualify Ukraine for nato membership.

So yes I do know why Ukraine didn’t join nato for all those years.

As far as joining now. Technically according to nato rules they can’t and you know that.

But after all the nato aid and assistance and Russia refusing to withdraw.
Well why the fuck not now?

“but oh of we’re not careful Russias going to use nukes”

at least that’s what every body mews about repeatedly.

So why not sweep them up into nato and move nato troops and equipment into Ukraine.
And call the short little fuckers bet!

I mean if we’re all going to die anyway might as well go out on our feet.

Could ask the same on American actions or lack of . No country in conflict can join nato. Maybe the hard truth is nato and America know their positions. And that is real answer.

 

[Publius]

Could ask the same on American actions or lack of . No country in conflict can join nato. Maybe the hard truth is nato and America know their positions. And that is real answer.

Sure you can and it’s a legitimate argument to make.
I’m only saying that Russia has behaved like a psycho fifth grader throwing a temper tantrum because the us nato and many other countries don’t want to play by Russias rules or versions of history.
Then fine screw the nato rules and send in nato brigades armor and air.
Why the hell not Russia is obviously not interested in anyones opinion or values but their few select leaders.
So monkey stomp there ass and be done with it.
But that’s just me.
The US and GB and others ARE standing by their values and not giving the ok for Ukraine to join now.?

 

[Erecon]

NATO could invite Ukraine anytime. However NATO does not want war with Russia, thats why Ukraine has to wait.

 

[Yingyang]

Sure you can and it’s a legitimate argument to make.
I’m only saying that Russia has behaved like a psycho fifth grader throwing a temper tantrum because the us nato and many other countries don’t want to play by Russias rules or versions of history.
Then fine screw the nato rules and send in nato brigades armor and air.
Why the hell not Russia is obviously not interested in anyones opinion or values but their few select leaders.
So monkey stomp there ass and be done with it.
But that’s just me.
The US and GB and others ARE standing by their values and not giving the ok for Ukraine to join now.?

Obviously not. Ukraine won't be accepted into nato until a change is made in Ukraine government after the war. So pretty pointless with all these reports about Ukraine joining NATO as it can't and won't happen until those two issues are resolved. As to your concerns about Ukraine and western support it must be driving you nuts with dissatisfaction. GOODLUCK with that. The actions you wish they would take they Obviously won't.

 

[Braver911]

IMO I believe with NATO suspending MAP Russia has to play this thing out. Russia does not want another NATO neighbor and doesn’t want to tangle with NATO countries. The road just got a lot longer. But can Russia sustain and keep territory with NATO weapons already being utilized by Ukraine? And how long until Putin says enough is enough?

 

[Publius]

Obviously not. Ukraine won't be accepted into nato until a change is made in Ukraine government after the war. So pretty pointless with all these reports about Ukraine joining NATO as it can't and won't happen until those two issues are resolved. As to your concerns about Ukraine and western support it must be driving you nuts with dissatisfaction. GOODLUCK with that. The actions you wish they would take they Obviously won't.

No I’m pretty phlegmatic about it.
I know what I think should be done.
I know I have no viable means to change things.
So I just watch and discuss.

1. Russia could fold in the next six months
2. Ukraine could pick up considerably more parts of eastern Ukraine and then negotiations bring about an agreeable peace treaty.
3. The war drags on pretty much as it has for another year.
4. Nato could jump in with both feet and push russia back and Putin gives birth to a cat and launches a nuke.
5. NATO could fold and withdraw all support and Ukraine falls to Russia.

There is only one scenario where Russia ends up controlling Ukraine again. #5

 

[Publius]

Obviously not. Ukraine won't be accepted into nato until a change is made in Ukraine government after the war. So pretty pointless with all these reports about Ukraine joining NATO as it can't and won't happen until those two issues are resolved. As to your concerns about Ukraine and western support it must be driving you nuts with dissatisfaction. GOODLUCK with that. The actions you wish they would take they Obviously won't.

A change in government in Ukraine is not the issue. I’m not sure what data or evidence you are basing that on.
Being in a conflict and disputed boarders are the technical barrier to joining.
And for that matter NATO is a consensus organization. It all members willing agree to Ukraine joining. Then the rules don’t really matter. The rules exist to guard the members, not to be chains on the members.

 

[Yingyang]

A change in government in Ukraine is not the issue. I’m not sure what data or evidence you are basing that on.
Being in a conflict and disputed boarders are the technical barrier to joining.
And for that matter NATO is a consensus organization. It all members willing agree to Ukraine joining. Then the rules don’t really matter. The rules exist to guard the members, not to be chains on the members.

Data and evidence was my conclusion from history as to my beliefs why previous and current and future nato membership is a problem. Hence my belief on government change before membership. The rules may not matter but obviously consensus is a massive hurdle that may not be overcome and obviously is current to the situation. Otherwise they could be nato member immediately which nato don't have the balls to do for obvious reasons. Even without reasons I believe which most deny than that would no reason why they cannot join now. Nato have clearly stated their position in the last couple days. So many are still ripping their out grasping words of support for Ukraine without getting boots dirty. Oh well it is what is. Truth be told what is it?
Fear, belief in false nuclear threats, lack of balls, etc etc. Please enlighten me on the delay by west and nato and Russian ability to continue without hesitation showing the ability to fight a war with old weapons against a country being supplied with old weapons when the west could clearly sacrifice newer more advanced weapons to finish or bring Ukraine victory faster. Lots of questions about western support that seems obvious they truly don't care about Ukraine or its population by what they supply, time it takes, amounts given etc etc all of this onto of agreement to nato membership and lack of nato stepping up.

 

[Yingyang]

My apologies i do believe i made an incorrect comment saying America doesn't have the guts to act in Ukraine completely forgotten their hands are tied behind their backs in Europe and cannot act independently of nato in the European theatre. Then again they have no reason to act against Russia in Syria either as both have a common goal . Which I guess answers the question of patience with each other there. As neither want a direct clash in or outside of nato jurisdiction. America simply doesn't want to risk calling Putins bluff on nukes regardless of its populations beliefs on Russian nuclear capacity and capabilities. Must driving some people nuts with their attitude clearly being challenged by their own countries military and leadership.

 

[Publius]

Data and evidence was my conclusion from history as to my beliefs why previous and current and future nato membership is a problem. Hence my belief on government change before membership. The rules may not matter but obviously consensus is a massive hurdle that may not be overcome and obviously is current to the situation. Otherwise they could be nato member immediately which nato don't have the balls to do for obvious reasons. Even without reasons I believe which most deny than that would no reason why they cannot join now. Nato have clearly stated their position in the last couple days. So many are still ripping their out grasping words of support for Ukraine without getting boots dirty. Oh well it is what is. Truth be told what is it?
Fear, belief in false nuclear threats, lack of balls, etc etc. Please enlighten me on the delay by west and nato and Russian ability to continue without hesitation showing the ability to fight a war with old weapons against a country being supplied with old weapons when the west could clearly sacrifice newer more advanced weapons to finish or bring Ukraine victory faster. Lots of questions about western support that seems obvious they truly don't care about Ukraine or its population by what they supply, time it takes, amounts given etc etc all of this onto of agreement to nato membership and lack of nato stepping up.

Wow so before it was all NATO’s fault Russia had to go to the assistance of Ukraine and rescue their Slavic brothers and sisters from corruption and Nazi’s by bombing the shit out of it, destroying its infrastructure, and launching cruise missiles haphazardly into cities.

NOW Because NATO has not already brought Ukraine in. It’s again NATO’s fault because they have no balls?

I already explained why nato hasn’t as yet brought Ukraine in. It’s because of its own rules.
And yet again that is NATO’s fault I know quit beating a dead horse.

What is most notable regarding Ukrainian NATO membership is who is calling for it to happen immediately. It’s not just Zelinski “the corrupt”.

The countries that are calling for nato membership right away are all mostly the Eastern European nations. Those nations that recognize the risk in Eastern Europe on Russia’s boarder.

It is no longer some vague American plot to destroy Russia and world domination. It’s nations that have had to deal with Russia under the czars, the Soviets and now Putin.

What we are seeing is the very countries that suffered under soviet and Russian rule for the duration of the Cold War. They are the ones who recognize the intentions of Moscow. Now when given the opportunity to join an alliance and stand with others against Russia. That is exactly what they chose to do.

Just as we saw in the fall of 2021 and Jan and Feb of 2022. It was the eastern European nations who we’re making the most noise that Russias was going to invade Ukraine and nato needs to pay attention.

And when Russia invaded Ukraine Russia successfully validated the reason NATO is still needed. As well as why NATO so aggressively encroached upon Russia.
Because most if not all of the old Warsaw pac nations know their history with Russia. And they all applied for membership into nato precisely because they knew Russia would again march west.

I really dont care if Ukraine joins now or later.
Russia can ring the nuclear bell all they want.
If there is consensus then let them join now. The reason none of us can know is not because of some spooky conspiracy. We can’t know because it is all dependent upon a unanimous decision of 31 separate nations.
I know it’s such a terrible American hegemony that 31 nations have to be in unanimity.

 

[Yingyang]

Wow so before it was all NATO’s fault Russia had to go to the assistance of Ukraine and rescue their Slavic brothers and sisters from corruption and Nazi’s by bombing the shit out of it, destroying its infrastructure, and launching cruise missiles haphazardly into cities.

NOW Because NATO has not already brought Ukraine in. It’s again NATO’s fault because they have no balls?

I already explained why nato hasn’t as yet brought Ukraine in. It’s because of its own rules.
And yet again that is NATO’s fault I know quit beating a dead horse.

What is most notable regarding Ukrainian NATO membership is who is calling for it to happen immediately. It’s not just Zelinski “the corrupt”.

The countries that are calling for nato membership right away are all mostly the Eastern European nations. Those nations that recognize the risk in Eastern Europe on Russia’s boarder.

It is no longer some vague American plot to destroy Russia and world domination. It’s nations that have had to deal with Russia under the czars, the Soviets and now Putin.

What we are seeing is the very countries that suffered under soviet and Russian rule for the duration of the Cold War. They are the ones who recognize the intentions of Moscow. Now when given the opportunity to join an alliance and stand with others against Russia. That is exactly what they chose to do.

Just as we saw in the fall of 2021 and Jan and Feb of 2022. It was the eastern European nations who we’re making the most noise that Russias was going to invade Ukraine and nato needs to pay attention.

And when Russia invaded Ukraine Russia successfully validated the reason NATO is still needed. As well as why NATO so aggressively encroached upon Russia.
Because most if not all of the old Warsaw pac nations know their history with Russia. And they all applied for membership into nato precisely because they knew Russia would again march west.

I really dont care if Ukraine joins now or later.
Russia can ring the nuclear bell all they want.
If there is consensus then let them join now. The reason none of us can know is not because of some spooky conspiracy. We can’t know because it is all dependent upon a unanimous decision of 31 separate nations.
I know it’s such a terrible American hegemony that 31 nations have to be in unanimity.

Don't worry Ukraine will never join imo. As you say to many conflicting countries in nato .

 

[DescendedDeath]

Don't worry the west will continue to support Ukraine until all available Ukrainian drop of blood is spilt , than we will see discussion start

You’ll see discussion start when Russia leaves the country they thought they could invade.

 

[DescendedDeath]

Don't worry Ukraine will never join imo. As you say to many conflicting countries in nato .

I honestly wouldn’t be so sure. Once the war is over, NATO and the G6 have already given many security guarantees. I really would not be shocked if Ukraine got an advanced entry into the alliance once everything is said and done.

 

[teekay99]

I honestly wouldn’t be so sure. Once the war is over, NATO and the G6 have already given many security guarantees. I really would not be shocked if Ukraine got an advanced entry into the alliance once everything is said and done.

Unless the terms of whatever agreement or event that brings the conflict to a conclusion dictates UA must remain unentangled or neutral....

 

[RiffRaff]

I honestly wouldn’t be so sure. Once the war is over, NATO and the G6 have already given many security guarantees. I really would not be shocked if Ukraine got an advanced entry into the alliance once everything is said and done.

Because security guarantees have worked so well for Ukraine in the past.

 

[Publius]

Don't worry Ukraine will never join imo. As you say to many conflicting countries in nato .

And that my good man is why Nato is not a world domination society of death. It is a alliance of nations who have a common interest and voluntary membership.

Now Samantha Powers could actually be Darth Vader lite.

 

[Publius]

Because security guarantees have worked so well for Ukraine in the past.

Your spot on, but they are actually doing a little better this time

I have reoccurring nightmares I’ll wake up and read the US has pulled another afghan withdraw two step.

 

[Erecon]

Lend lease nukes with the range to reach St. Petersburg and Moscow might do the job.

 

[Publius]

Lend lease nukes with the range to reach St. Petersburg and Moscow might do the job.

Oh lord man that’s a whole new thread