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UA-RU-NATO | DISCUSSIONS (Closed)

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OReid said:
I do think they perceive it as imperial aggression. Or at least to the degree they can use it as just cause to raise domestic support.
Russia Europe and Turkey have been dancing this dance for at least 200 yrs.

I was not supportive of whatever involvement we might of had with the Maiden revolution. It is hard to say how much material support we gave to the organizers of the revolution. There was all kind of speculation. But I really didn’t want us involved because it would be seen exactly as aggression by Russia.
But I’ve also recognized Ukraine has had two elections since the revolution and they had tracked a similar course both times and the population overwhelmingly is in support of no more overt Russian influence. As well as strong support to repel the invasion.

So I have come to recognized that the revolution was real with widespread Popular support. Not just a coup supported by the CIA. If it ever was anything like that to start with. It happened and Ukrainians on the whole seem supportive of their new found independence.

There’s that old saying “just because your paranoid doesn’t mean people aren’t out to get you.
I believe at times that can be true. But most of the time you can’t let your paranoia take over your life and ruin it.

Sometimes you just have to recognize your paranoia is conflating rejection as a sign of aggression.
So in that sense Russias paranoia has turned them into a stalker. There view of the world doesn’t match what real intentions of those they think are after them.

Russia has had this everyone’s out to get us mentality for over 200 yrs. It’s is a nation who’s systems and world view stand in opposition to their neighbors. Were they see it as perfectly normal that they have undo influence and control of their neighbors because it serves Russia. And that is enough justify their actions.

So is this reasoning of theirs enough to justify letting them control these regions unopposed.
I don’t think it is. At some point this national paranoia has to end. It’s not good for anybody especially the Russian people.
I don’t know if that’s a good reply or not. I feel like it isn’t but there you go. Appreciate your comments.
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Looking at that, history proves no western country or nato country has ever tried imposing it's will on another for any reason. So paranoia is totally unjustifiable. This also relates to any reason why nato would expand at the risk of upsetting a country that clearly shows such concerns. Or allow the thought that nato would see Russia as a reason for such need. Very complexing.🤔🧐🤷🏻‍♂️Molotov,Gorbachev and Putin tried to join nato to be part of and recognised as part of European acceptance and promote peace. Than again we should not consider the enemies point of view of their actions.
 
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Yingyang said:
Looking at that, history proves no western country or nato country has ever tried imposing it's will on another for any reason. So paranoia is totally unjustifiable. This also relates to any reason why nato would expand at the risk of upsetting a country that clearly shows such concerns. Or allow the thought that nato would see Russia as a reason for such need. Very complexing.🤔🧐🤷🏻‍♂️
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Russias invasion of Ukraine proves Eastern European nations were right to join nato.
There is a proven track record of Russia invading neighboring states who refuse the will of Moscow.
So yeah, Russia by their actions has demonstrated the reason for being of nato.

I don’t personally believe the Russian leadership sees it this way. At its heart I believe it’s just an excuse to justify.
At its heart it’s about power and the expansion of their power.
 
OReid said:
Russias invasion of Ukraine proves Eastern European nations were right to join nato.
There is a proven track record of Russia invading neighboring states who refuse the will of Moscow.
So yeah, Russia by their actions has demonstrated the reason for being of nato.

I don’t personally believe the Russian leadership sees it this way. At its heart I believe it’s just an excuse to justify.
At its heart it’s about power and the expansion of their power.
Click to expand...
Yeah but would this have happened if accepted? Surely nato membership would have been an easier solution than treaties and agreements. As those obviously easier to break than nato membership. Or is that the reason for denial?
 
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OReid said:
I do think they perceive it as imperial aggression. Or at least to the degree they can use it as just cause to raise domestic support.
Russia Europe and Turkey have been dancing this dance for at least 200 yrs.

I was not supportive of whatever involvement we might of had with the Maiden revolution. It is hard to say how much material support we gave to the organizers of the revolution. There was all kind of speculation. But I really didn’t want us involved because it would be seen exactly as aggression by Russia.
But I’ve also recognized Ukraine has had two elections since the revolution and they had tracked a similar course both times and the population overwhelmingly is in support of no more overt Russian influence. As well as strong support to repel the invasion.

So I have come to recognized that the revolution was real with widespread Popular support. Not just a coup supported by the CIA. If it ever was anything like that to start with. It happened and Ukrainians on the whole seem supportive of their new found independence.

There’s that old saying “just because your paranoid doesn’t mean people aren’t out to get you.
I believe at times that can be true. But most of the time you can’t let your paranoia take over your life and ruin it.

Sometimes you just have to recognize your paranoia is conflating rejection as a sign of aggression.
So in that sense Russias paranoia has turned them into a stalker. There view of the world doesn’t match what real intentions of those they think are after them.

Russia has had this everyone’s out to get us mentality for over 200 yrs. It’s is a nation who’s systems and world view stand in opposition to their neighbors. Were they see it as perfectly normal that they have undo influence and control of their neighbors because it serves Russia. And that is enough justify their actions.

So is this reasoning of theirs enough to justify letting them control these regions unopposed.
I don’t think it is. At some point this national paranoia has to end. It’s not good for anybody especially the Russian people.
I don’t know if that’s a good reply or not. I feel like it isn’t but there you go. Appreciate your comments.
Click to expand...

I agree that national paranoia is not sustainable. But remember, that paranoia did get very strongly reinforced by Hitler's surprise attack in 1941 despite the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact between Moscow and Berlin. That substantially influenced USSR posture for decades, and I am sure influences Russian posture today. In fact, Putin's absurd belief that Ukraine is a Nazi/fascist state (despite their Jewish president) is either born from or meant to capitalize upon those old feelings of paranoia. Hopefully, if anything, this war with Ukraine helps the Russian people shine a light on ingrained institutional memories and to help it get the therapy it needs to end the paranoia (or at least cope with it).
 
Question for staffers:

Given UA'S 'loose lips sink ships' video from this morning urging silence on the counteroffensive, should we be more careful with things posted in the reports thread?
 
uamcplyr said:
Question for staffers:

Given UA'S 'loose lips sink ships' video from this morning urging silence on the counteroffensive, should we be more careful with things posted in the reports thread?
Click to expand...

I am not a staff member. But if the information is already being disseminated on news websites, does it make a difference?
 
teekay99 said:
I am not a staff member. But if the information is already being disseminated on news websites, does it make a difference?
Click to expand...

News websites are one thing, social media and freelancers are a different beast.

Case in point. I'm seeing things posted on Twitter (not widely shared but shared nonetheless) about things (allegedly) happening on the ground right now that are pretty interesting on first glance but not being reported by the newswires. The kind of thing I've seen publicly reported by OSINT groups pre-today but now aren't being reported by them, at least publicly.

Yesterday I'd have linked to min. one but now I'm hesitant, so wondering if there's a position. E.g., if on newswire, fair game, else do $something, etc.

🤔
 
uamcplyr said:
News websites are one thing, social media and freelancers are a different beast.

Case in point. I'm seeing things posted on Twitter (not widely shared but shared nonetheless) about things (allegedly) happening on the ground right now that are pretty interesting on first glance but not being reported by the newswires. The kind of thing I've seen publicly reported by OSINT groups pre-today but now aren't being reported by them, at least publicly.

Yesterday I'd have linked to min. one but now I'm hesitant, so wondering if there's a position. E.g., if on newswire, fair game, else do $something, etc.

🤔
Click to expand...

Good point about social media and "the Twitter" posts. I don' have "the Twitter" or "the Facebook" so I never thought about them. I guess we should await guidance.
However, if Ukrainian insiders are posting sensitive military material not mean for public consumption on social media, well, that's not very bright of them.... Of course if they are doing that and they still manage to wallop the Russians (fingers crossed), well, that speaks volumes about Russian analysis and capability.
 
DEFCON Warning System said:
This is kind of untrue. The US won both Vietnam and Korea militarily. In fact, I think it was Vietnam where the US never actually lost a battle.

The US lost Vietnam and took a draw on Korea because of politics back home.
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I believe we are splitting hairs. The US lost many small and several large battles to the Chinese hoards in Korea
 
teekay99 said:
Perhaps Russia does not view NATO as a voluntary treaty organization.
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I would disagree with that. At least to the point where a country is forced to join. Russia may believe that a country can be taken over and then "voluntarily" join, like they believe Ukraine was taken over.
 
uamcplyr said:
Question for staffers:

Given UA'S 'loose lips sink ships' video from this morning urging silence on the counteroffensive, should we be more careful with things posted in the reports thread?
Click to expand...
Our policy that if it is public knowledge, it is fair game.
 
Unconfirmed!!!
💥It is reported that the Armed Forces of Ukraine attacked the Kakhovka hydroelectric power station and blew it up!
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Yingyang said:
No confirmation on dam yet?
F18s from Australia yet?
Click to expand...
Yes severe damage to the dam and flooding is confirmed, it’s all over all the news outlets here in the U.K.

It’s not completely clear how it happened, who is responsible etc.

Don’t know anything about F18s.
 
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