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UA-RU-NATO | Discussions

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Seriously said:
I’m not sure how you can make that claim of nato expenditures vs russian

Russian raised their defense budget to 83 billion in 2023 a 13 billion increase.
www.voanews.com

Russia Reportedly Raises $13 Billion for 2023 Defense Spending

Russia is relentlessly pounding Ukraine's energy infrastructure
www.voanews.com www.voanews.com

Nato defense spending sans the US in 2022 was 368 billon. 1.18 trillion with the US included.
So even with out the US component European and Canadian NATO far outpaces Russia in military expenditure.
Russia is hoping to score artillery ammo from China which they will likely get. And their now rolling out T-55!
Pulling 70yr old tanks out of mothballs is not a demonstration of an endless military arsenal.
It is certainly not a military juggernaut!


Now I will acknowledge this war has become a war of attrition and who will plug along blithely and continue to fund it and send soldiers to the front the longest will be the winner.

This war was and still is for a short time a winnable conflict for nato and Ukraine.
But there is a clock ticking on how long western support will continue. Or for that matter how long Ukraine can continue.

We have not in the second half of the war delivered the weaponry Ukraine needs to displace Russia.
I dont know that we will in time.

Sadly this will likely result in a divided Ukraine.
But it will have been a very expensive lesson to Russia that all actions they conceive will not be ignored.
And before everyone goes how can a so carelessly dismiss the cost to Ukraine. I’m not Russia ass____ Ukraine and it’s an unforgivable thing. But that score will be settled on another day.
When it over settle the boarders where they lay and invite what if Ukraine still free post haste into nato.

And at the end of the day Russia will have a western boarder with nato states that are more militarized and demonstrably hostile towards Russia.
I say well done Vladimir.

You unnecessarily destroyed a nation, your “Slavic brothers”.
You sent 200000 of your sons to their death
You depleted your military stores
And made an enemy of your largest trading partner of the last thirty years.

It was simply a brilliant strategy to win friends and influence people.
Click to expand...

You can't make military analysis speaking about the defence expenditures in EU Countries: it's a very shortsighted POV. You don't take into account an huge quantity of other important things:
- what are the main expenditure voices in EU Countries. And I live the question here.
- if there are structures suitable to organize even the smollest kind of mobilization;
- if there are enough riservist in order to train recruits;
- and so on.

"It is certainly not a military juggernaut!" are the same most famous words said by Napoleone, Hitler and Mussolini.

I wait Torcher to put his usual important contribution to the discussion, with his beloved emoticon. But unfortunately... this is not enough to refute nothing.
 
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bartok said:
You can't make military analysis speaking about the defence expenditures in EU Countries: it's a very shortsighted POV. You don't take into account an huge quantity of other important things:
- what are the main expenditure voices in EU Countries. And I live the question here.
- if there are structures suitable to organize even the smollest kind of mobilization;
- if there are enough riservist in order to train recruits;
- and so on.

"It is certainly not a military juggernaut!" are the same most famous words said by Napoleone, Hitler and Mussolini.

I wait Torcher to put his usual important contribution to the discussion, with his beloved emoticon. But unfortunately... this is not enough to refute nothing.
Click to expand...
I think you are right (shocking I know). The EU has been pathetic in its military preparedness. They have sucked on the tit of PAX Americana for 78 years. They couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper sack atm. It’s not the quality as they have very very good equipment. It’s the size. They can’t bring themselves to spend 2% of their GDP on their own fucking defense. It’s really disgraceful and embarrassing.

Even Britain now has fallen
into the trap of reducing its forces to the point of near uselessness.
 
bartok said:
You can't make military analysis speaking about the defence expenditures in EU Countries: it's a very shortsighted POV. You don't take into account an huge quantity of other important things:
- what are the main expenditure voices in EU Countries. And I live the question here.
- if there are structures suitable to organize even the smollest kind of mobilization;
- if there are enough riservist in order to train recruits;
- and so on.

"It is certainly not a military juggernaut!" are the same most famous words said by Napoleone, Hitler and Mussolini.

I wait Torcher to put his usual important contribution to the discussion, with his beloved emoticon. But unfortunately... this is not enough to refute nothing.
Click to expand...
No expenditures are not the definitive base line that decides military strength.
There are cost inflation between all the nations considered. Theoretically $1 might or might not go farther in Russia than in Europe.

You cannot however completely discount the differences in military budgets though. Specifically because initially we were discussing ammunition and bombs stockpiles. Not mobilizing new recruits out of Europe.

As far as Russian “reservist” I wouldn’t put much emphasis on that valuation. It is after all because of Russias low reservist numbers that necessitated them sending prisoners to the front.
That does not speak well of Russias reservist numbers or civilians willing to enlist and go to war.

As far as hitler and napoleon they were trying to conquer Russia and invaded Russia. Ukraine has not invaded Russia nor has nato.
So I’m confused with the
napoleon, hitler comparison. Are you implying Russia is dreaming of empire and are fascist trying to conquer conquere their neighbors.
If so I totally agree.

I provided a some sources to validate my position.
Feel free to provide some data or sources that the illuminate your position. I might be convinced.
 
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Torcher said:
“Please expand and contrast your answers using a number 2 lead pencil”

Seriously I feel more stupider.
I don’t know where you were going with that answer.
Click to expand...
The Globalists agenda right along has been to reduce the influence and power of Western/European Societies.
Probably not explaining it adequately, hope the intent comes across.
 
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Torcher said:
I think you are right (shocking I know). The EU has been pathetic in its military preparedness. They have sucked on the tit of PAX Americana for 78 years. They couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper sack atm. It’s not the quality as they have very very good equipment. It’s the size. They can’t bring themselves to spend 2% of their GDP on their own fucking defense. It’s really disgraceful and embarrassing.

Even Britain now has fallen
into the trap of reducing its forces to the point of near uselessness.
Click to expand...
Actually Greece Poland Lithuania Britain Slovakia Estonia Latvia Croatia and Romania reached or exceeded the 2% level. Many of the rest all increased there gdp level by a half to 3/4 of a percent between 2014 and 2022. All showed increases during that period
Virtually all nato members increased and exceeded the equipment expenditure (20% of military budget) spending.
And here’s the kicker only the US showed a decrease in military spending between 2015 and 2022. Granted we’ve been on a war footing forever so I get it. But all nato members increased their defense spending between 2015 and 2022.
In 2020 nato Europe and Canada were spending at the same level as 1989 and those are adjusted dollars.
So don’t be too hard on them. Most of them recognized what was happening.
 
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Seriously said:
Greece Poland Lithuania Britain Slovakia Estonia Latvia Croatia and Romania reached or exceeded the 2%
Click to expand...
That's just 8 nations out of 30 committing 2%...

Seriously said:
Most of them recognized what was happening.
Click to expand...
I agree but they need to do more and depend on us less for their defense. Sure there doing a little better since 2014... BUT after almost a century of America being their "babysitter" think it's about time they leave the nest and fly on their own metaphorically speaking.

We still need and always will likly need NATO. But America shouldn't be the only serious player in the alliance. US shouldn't be the only reasons that makes NATO a very formidable/feared alliance, others need to really, really step it up.

Sure France and UK have nukes. But that doesn't make you a serious player on the global theater, not in the sense where talking about at least. Where talking conventional.
 
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DarkNoon 🇺🇦 said:
We still need and always will likly need NATO. But America shouldn't be the only serious player in the alliance. US shouldn't be the only reasons that makes NATO a very formidable/feared alliance, others need to really, really step it up.

Sure France and UK have nukes. But that doesn't make you a serious player on the global theater. Where talking conventional.
Click to expand...
Well I don’t know what to tell you.
“Don’t kick a dog when he’s beginning to work with you rather than against”

For our non Americans I’m not calling Europeans dogs. That is an American colloquialism.
 
Seriously said:
Well I don’t know what to tell you.
“Don’t kick a dog when he’s beginning to work with you rather than against”
Click to expand...
I'm not saying that they're not doing good work they are certainly building up their military. I totally agree with you.

They should definitely be commemorated for realizing the situation they are in and actually building up their military's. I'm just saying givin everything they should be trying a lot harder.

Seriously said:
I’m not calling Europeans dogs. That is an American colloquialism.
Click to expand...
Also I'm not calling them dogs either. Their our unshakable allies through hell or high-waters solidified through decades of very close cooperation, coupled with mutually beneficial friendships, ideals, and principles centered around basic freedoms/human rights.
 
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Seriously said:
Actually Greece Poland Lithuania Britain Slovakia Estonia Latvia Croatia and Romania reached or exceeded the 2% level. Many of the rest all increased there gdp level by a half to 3/4 of a percent between 2014 and 2022. All showed increases during that period
Virtually all nato members increased and exceeded the equipment expenditure (20% of military budget) spending.
And here’s the kicker only the US showed a decrease in military spending between 2015 and 2022. Granted we’ve been on a war footing forever so I get it. But all nato members increased their defense spending between 2015 and 2022.
In 2020 nato Europe and Canada were spending at the same level as 1989 and those are adjusted dollars.
So don’t be too hard on them. Most of them recognized what was happening.
Click to expand...
My understanding is that while many allocated additional funding after the invasion that most haven’t actually spent any. Germany is a good example.
 
Torcher said:
My understanding is that while many allocated additional funding after the invasion that most haven’t actually spent any. Germany is a good example.
Click to expand...
I took the figures from the nato doc I linked too earlier. 21 and 22 are noted as estimate.

Greece has the highest increase per gdp even higher than the US.
You would think there equipping to March into Persia again.
 
Questor213 said:
Hypothetical: China begins supplying RU with artillery and shells, tanks, drones, etc, in a big way. In the China way of mass production which honestly dwarfs most / all other countries...

What happens next? Play this out four or five levels of consequences.

I think it spirals towards world war.
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I don't think this would spiral towards world war. What I do think is that it would spell the end of "Made in China" as we know it. The West would slap massive sanctions on imports of Chinese goods, inflation would increase, Chinese sellers might become banned from using US/Western trading platforms, and much manufacturing would eventually shift from China to other places in Southeast Asia, Eastern Europe, Northern Africa, Latin America, or back into the US and Western Europe. The state of technology manufacturing would be the most difficult as a lot of the important factories are in China and Taiwan, and Chinese would be more likely to try and lock up Taiwan if they decide to support Russia with arms.

I don't think there would be a military escalation necessarily. There is a lot of damage that can be done economically, far more than the impact of economic sanctions on Russia given how much China depends on the West as a market. We would pay a price too with higher inflation however.
 
RiffRaff said:
We only react to nuclear threats. Nothing more, nothing less. Russia could devastate Ukraine from border to border and if we see no signs of nuclear escalation, we would remain at defcon 5.

Conventional wars do not impact the defcon level.
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Unless it is a full blown conventional war between two nuclear powers. The question would be how long it stays conventional.
 
TruthandJustice said:
Unless it is a full blown conventional war between two nuclear powers. The question would be how long it stays conventional.
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Correct, but even then it would most likely be a slow progression from DEFCON 5 to 1. Most people here agree that NATO countries are already involved in a proxy war with Russia at this point.
 
It’s just like when during the 80’s everyone was convinced we were all going to burn, be blinded, or freeze in a nuclear winter.
 
Torcher said:

Russians tried to beat the Ukrainian out of us, say rescued children​


www.nzherald.co.nz

Russians tried to beat the Ukrainian out of us, say rescued children

Ukraine govt says more than 16,000 children have been deported to Russia.
www.nzherald.co.nz www.nzherald.co.nz
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This This right here is what needs to drum tight investigated and proven and shouted on the roof tops. Non stop everyday make movies make documentaries make it a barb in the heart of every pacifist non interventionist.

If it is proven beyond doubt as a premeditated effort by russsia.
Then this is your war crime, forcefully removing children from their homes and nation and culture is by definition genocide.
 
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