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UA-RU | April 10th-30th | DISCUSSIONS

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WeirdnessUnfolds said:
And that's not a credible news source at all.
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In Italy there aren't any credible source at all. All the mass-medias and newspapers say excactly the same: Russian are bad, Russian are beaten, Russian are confiscated, Azov battalion is not a Nazi Battalion, the same for others Nazi formation in Ukraine. The swastika is largely rehabilitated with the excuse that is a "solar symbol". We ear that Putin is probably sick, and then imprevedible (as in the last DWS statement), when US itself has a President that shakes the hand to the ghosts. Nobody, in the mainstream, says that Biden is evidently not healthy, but no one seems to be warried about that Biden has the nuclear briefcase. So, by now, in Italy we have understood (except the idiots, who are many) that the true information is not in the mainstream, but in other sources, like telegram, or in other websites (like this one IMHO, even if it is a little biased, but you are American and Russia is always been your archenemy like the Jocker with Batman, so...), as that I have posted, which report not only the usual easy journalist witnesses in Leopoli on the Ukrainan side, but also journalists more difficult witnesses on the battlefronts, on Maripol and Donbass, on the Russian side.
 
You know most news sources write with a predetermined dialectic. By omission of details or over emphasis of others.
And everyone who reads the news does so with their own predetermined dialect.
You know the conflict of two opposing ideas till one of them is subdued.

Take for example of that Ukraine is overrun with Nazi’s A year ago when I decided I need to answer this question of Ukrainian nazis I explored the facts of it as best that I can at a distance.
I came away with a couple of conclusions that were convincing enough for me.
Yeah there is a portion of Ukraine population that has attached themselves to the nationalist tendencies of fascism. But when I read articles of the Azov brigade not being entirely involved in all the nazi symbolism that is was only a portion of what their members are.
And when I take into consideration that all those reporting on the terrible fascist espousing Ukrainian nationalism. And that many of those ngos and news orgs are explicitly opposed to any kind of nationalism. That any form of nationalism is evil. I discounted much of their clamoring over Ukrainian nationalist.
Most people who might consider themselves a nationalist aren’t doing so with the bias that their country and culture is superior and all others need to be viewed and treated as inferior. In reality most nationalist just recognize that they where born or moved to a place and they value that country or culture. And that they want to protect it in its current form because it protects and encourages their world view.
That’s normal human nature, you defend your home.

When nationalism turns into a imperial ambition to spread its culture and influence and control on other nations thats a problem. So by those parameters I’m a nationalist. My nation is not perfect and in many ways we are struggling to defend and protect some of our past cultural values that have been tested with time. Knowing full well their are parts of our history that never need to be returned to. It’s a process.

Then when is see some of the very same nazi symbology in the Russian culture and military ie. Wagner groups leaders tattoos it was then that I completely dismissed any and all if Russian claims of fascism.

I was not a Russian phobic, Russians were for Russians and that is realistically how it should be. But when Russia and or Putin decided to invade Ukraine and by force convert it people back to allegiance to Russia and Putin’s never ending histrionic speeches on how Ukraine was never Ukraine they were our little brother. I made my decision. Russia is acting completely in an imperialist manner here by waging war and seeking to subdue Ukraine as it has done repeatedly in the past.
And I object, they are behaving in away that isn’t acceptable to me so my good with that, everything else is superfluous. This is the nature of war, you try and select a stand and how to respond to it and then Pursue it till it is settled.
Putin’s sick Putin’s an asshole Russians are crazy warmongers. That’s all irrelevant, the fights on and people are dying. Do damm well what ever you have to do to bring a conclusion to the war as quickly and efficiently as you can in a favorable manner to your nation or self.
The Eastern European nations by and large have made their choice in their internal government systems that they want to distance themselves from Russia in its current form. Maybe Russians should be asking themselves why rather than blaming everyone else.

Samething with Americans who’ve had to ask ourselves what we did wrong in the last twent years in the Middle East.
Self reflection is like hydrogen peroxide. Sometimes it burns like hell but you need to apply it none the less.
 
But who do you think could deal better with those russians?
Any weak pacifist government would get steamrolled by them.
They are in the right place and on the right time to hold Ukraine as good as possible.
 
Obreid said:
You know most news sources write with a predetermined dialectic. By omission of details or over emphasis of others.
And everyone who reads the news does so with their own predetermined dialect.
You know the conflict of two opposing ideas till one of them is subdued.

Take for example of that Ukraine is overrun with Nazi’s A year ago when I decided I need to answer this question of Ukrainian nazis I explored the facts of it as best that I can at a distance.
I came away with a couple of conclusions that were convincing enough for me.
Yeah there is a portion of Ukraine population that has attached themselves to the nationalist tendencies of fascism. But when I read articles of the Azov brigade not being entirely involved in all the nazi symbolism that is was only a portion of what their members are.
And when I take into consideration that all those reporting on the terrible fascist espousing Ukrainian nationalism. And that many of those ngos and news orgs are explicitly opposed to any kind of nationalism. That any form of nationalism is evil. I discounted much of their clamoring over Ukrainian nationalist.
Most people who might consider themselves a nationalist aren’t doing so with the bias that their country and culture is superior and all others need to be viewed and treated as inferior. In reality most nationalist just recognize that they where born or moved to a place and they value that country or culture. And that they want to protect it in its current form because it protects and encourages their world view.
That’s normal human nature, you defend your home.

When nationalism turns into a imperial ambition to spread its culture and influence and control on other nations thats a problem. So by those parameters I’m a nationalist. My nation is not perfect and in many ways we are struggling to defend and protect some of our past cultural values that have been tested with time. Knowing full well their are parts of our history that never need to be returned to. It’s a process.

Then when is see some of the very same nazi symbology in the Russian culture and military ie. Wagner groups leaders tattoos it was then that I completely dismissed any and all if Russian claims of fascism.

I was not a Russian phobic, Russians were for Russians and that is realistically how it should be. But when Russia and or Putin decided to invade Ukraine and by force convert it people back to allegiance to Russia and Putin’s never ending histrionic speeches on how Ukraine was never Ukraine they were our little brother. I made my decision. Russia is acting completely in an imperialist manner here by waging war and seeking to subdue Ukraine as it has done repeatedly in the past.
And I object, they are behaving in away that isn’t acceptable to me so my good with that, everything else is superfluous. This is the nature of war, you try and select a stand and how to respond to it and then Pursue it till it is settled.
Putin’s sick Putin’s an asshole Russians are crazy warmongers. That’s all irrelevant, the fights on and people are dying. Do damm well what ever you have to do to bring a conclusion to the war as quickly and efficiently as you can in a favorable manner to your nation or self.
The Eastern European nations by and large have made their choice in their internal government systems that they want to distance themselves from Russia in its current form. Maybe Russians should be asking themselves why rather than blaming everyone else.

Samething with Americans who’ve had to ask ourselves what we did wrong in the last twent years in the Middle East.
Self reflection is like hydrogen peroxide. Sometimes it burns like hell but you need to apply it none the less.
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It's no easy for me to respond to your post, because I don't master English enough to be really exhaustive.
I think that the self determination you speak about, would require a lot of clarifications. I think that NATO has searched the confrontation with Russia and that nothing has be done to avoid the war. None of the Russian concerns has been heard.
But it's not that the point.
You say that Ukraine is not a Nazi ruled Country, because, in short words, there are some Nazis, but the majority is only nationalist. We have to see, actually, if this "majority" is really the majority, or rather it is the part that is currently driving the Country. But, where is the difference between nationalist and Nazis, when the nationalists use Nazis forces to achieve their goals? Poroshenko wasn't a Nazi, but his speeches was very similar to the Nazi's one, when he said that Russophones people woudn't have pensions, Ukranians yes, Russophones chidren woundn't go to school and would live in cellars. They are not Nazi the teachers that said to the Ukranian children to marginalize other children with Russian names, but what is the difference? Where is the line between nationalism and Fascism?

As an Italian, all these stuff particularly hurts me. We, the Italians, we have invented the Fascism, nobody else. we were no less bad than Germans: only much more incapable. so this situation touches our unresolved issues, as what is happening in Ukraine touches their unsolved issues. All what is happening touch the unsolved issues of Europe. So the argument is very hard and complex. Practically, at the end of the war, no one of the Italian Fascists has been trialed: we solved all our problems with an amnesty and, having put Mussolini up side down and having exiliated the king, we could tell ourself to have punished the guilties. But, seeing at 80 years of distance, that we give weapons to the Nazis, seeing that in the same newspapers that were Fascist at that time, that NOW they defend swastika because is a "solar symbol", seeing that Russian people are beaten, marginalized, expropriated, I have to ask me if maybe we are excactly the same that 80 years ago, in an other way. We can say it as you like, that in Ukraine they are not all Nazis, but many they are. And we, the Italian, we are allied with the Nazis, again: it's something to think about. Again, we are interventionists, as then, when we could have been more neutral, as Swiss, that refuse to give weapons to Ukraine. But not us: we do.

And I also ask to me how Russian could read our behaviour. Italy is more important then Italians think. We feel good, but we were par of the Axis, we have invaded USSR with Germans and we repented on the 8 September 1943 only because we took slaps in the face on all the fronts during all the war. But have we changed? What have to think Russians about Italy that give weapons to the Nazis? I think that "deep down", in an Italian way, we are not so different compared to the Ukrainan nationalists.
 
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I think the following is well-intentioned realpolitik thinking that misses some key issues, due to the globalist influence so much of world affarirs analysis: "Putin used to be at least reasonable. But my theory is that his age has made him long for the "good old days". Unlike others, though, he has the power to at least try and bring them back."

There is an alternative way to consider issues with different context, critical for assessing security.

1. Vladimir Putin has never been "reasonable." Putin is and has been a calculating tyrant who makes decisions based on: (a) what will improve his power, and (b) what will improve Russia and its long-term power. He tried to redefine "democracy" as a "managed democracy" based on these tyranical values. Not unlike other extremists that the West has faced, tyrant Putin is looking at the long game. Western analysts view his invasion of Ukraine as unhinged. He views it as taking advantage of an open window of weakness in Western leadership to try to solve a long-term national security problem for Russia that would only get worse over decades. Was he right or wrong? Clearly he was morally and ethically wrong, and all rational people would reject the mass deaths in Ukraine. But if you abandon the idea of Vladimir Putin as ever being "reasonable," and rather consider Putin as "calculating," you can reach different conclusions as to why he invaded Ukraine. We can rightly choose to reject understanding anything from his "psychotic" point-of-view, but while that might help our conscience, it does not help us in assessing military intelligence on what an enemy might or might not do, based on their point of view.

2. In Russia, Vladimir Putin is not the only one seeking the power of the USSR (aka "the "good old days"), the reality is that there are and there has been a large consituency of Russian people who long to see Russsia/USSR as a world power that can make demands, not merely tolerate actions of others. Some enjoy the concept of being a feareed "empire," that can make demands of other nations. This is not unique to Russia/USSR, which was the USSR only 30 years ago, not 100 or 200 years ago. During the British Empire (1587-1957), this thinking was also prevelant, especially during the 20th century. The Boer War of 1899-1902 also had many ugly simliarities, and there were numerous other 20th century wars by USA regarding its own empire as well, while not as formal or intentional as Great Britain's, were also traumatic to people involved. The Western view of "democracy and freedom" (which I 1000% support) also needs to be considered through the filter of historical truth that those views meant neither to people in some other parts of the world. And looking back earlier, the Prussian Empire under Otto Von Bismark also valued its view as a "powerful" empire that could protect the interests of the members of empire itself. We naturally expect all people will gravitate towards the universal human rights of freedom But history sadly does not show that consistently to be the truth.

3. The trauma of the mass deaths in the Ukraine and 5 million refugees (over 10% of the country) give us the perception that this war is unique. To the fact that all wars are different, that is true. But there are also commonalities in such wars. The one commonality that those of us in the West reject and refuse to consider is that a number of people in Russia actually WANT this war, or if they do not want the war itself, they do not want NATO and Western influence to continue to grow in Ukraine on their border. And that those Russians consider it a threat, and they believe the tyrant Vladimir Putin is acting in "Russia's interest," rather than only being an "aging" lunatic tyrant who will destroy the world for Russia's "good old days." We can reject tyrant Putin and their invasion of Ukraine and also recognize they have a point of view that differs with ours... not that it is exclusively the derangement of elderly mad tyrant. I understand the viewpoint on this, the emotion on this, and compelling sympathy for the Ukrainian victims of the Russia invasion. But I don't think security analysis of the Ukraine-Russia war benefits by only having this focus on Russia and Putin. It is in the world's security interest to find a path to end the war and work for peace.

4. Regarding tyrant Putin's health, surely the source of the rumors, a handful of videos, individuals known to be working to promote very specific narratives, are all part of "data." Some of it may be true, some of it may not be true. I distinctly recall the multiple "deaths" reported of North Korea's Kim Jong-un. Regardless if any of those rumors had been true (they weren't), that leads to a massive assumption that the North Korea people would immediately abandon the KJU tyranny. But we don't know that at all. Nor do we know that even if tyrant Putin is gone, that Russia will change direction in Ukraine. These are Western assumptions made by those (with good intentions) that believe that other people do not have the right to pursue their vision of their nation's defense from the world, no matter how wrong and how evil we might view that to be .

5. I still hope for a negotiated peace settlement between Ukraine and Russia, to end the loss of lives amd the trauma of the Russian invasion to the Ukrainian nation. But I hope that the terrible invasion, war, loss of life, and threat the world peace, can be negotiated by those with their eyes wide open that we will always need to find a balance with those who have views and values inimical to our own. War is destructive for them and for those they attack. We need negotiators who understand them well enough to find a way to end the war.
 
I see these words from the US Secretary of Defence as interesting, because he sets out an objective framed around Russia’s overall military capability, as opposed to the simple objective of Ukraine repelling Russia:

“We want to see Russia weakened to the degree that it can't do the kinds of things that it has done in invading Ukraine."

I’m interested in how this is viewed in Russia.
https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-...-latest-12541713?postid=3780799#liveblog-body
 
dryjoy said:
I see these words from the US Secretary of Defence as interesting, because he sets out an objective framed around Russia’s overall military capability, as opposed to the simple objective of Ukraine repelling Russia:

“We want to see Russia weakened to the degree that it can't do the kinds of things that it has done in invading Ukraine."

I’m interested in how this is viewed in Russia.
https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-...-latest-12541713?postid=3780799#liveblog-body
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Probably old news for the Russian state media.
 
Russia tyrant Vladimir Putin may certainly have mental problems, but if he does, they are NOT recent, to those who have followed Russian history, as his pattern of cruelty and "isolation" goes back many decades. However, the tabloids have a UK psychologist interviewed about someone he has never met, and stating: "Mr McDermott told Express.co.uk: "At the beginning of the lockdown, Putin isolated himself and stayed isolated from people even until this point. Even now, he is still physically isolating."" (Eye roll.) So Mr. McDermott concludes Putin's isolation has driven him insane. This is a Mr. McDermott with no knowledge or interest in Russia history and the LONG, LONG past of Putin's cruelty. We get these propaganda media reports and they don't help the public in discussions on the Ukraine-Russia war. And actually, they lead to dangerous misinformation on military strategy.
www.express.co.uk

Expert warns Putin 'in state of psychosis' after Covid isolation

VLADIMIR PUTIN is exhibiting behaviours of psychosis and a potential "personality disorder" likely caused by his decision to avoid almost all human contact since the start of the COVID-19 pandemic, according to a psychotherapist.
www.express.co.uk www.express.co.uk
 
lcurle said:
This is big news and a good show that Ukraine is winning the fight. This also puts Marines on the ground to guard this embassy. Eyes and ears.
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It's also a nice way to give Putin a 'stop and think about it' if he ever had existing plans to do a certain 'thing' to Kyiv. Though a pessimist could argue they're human shields wagering Putin won't do the thing anyways.
 
REALHumanRights said:
But I don't think security analysis of the Ukraine-Russia war benefits by only having this focus on Russia and Putin. It is in the world's security interest to find a path to end the war and work for peace.
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While in principle it would always be optimal to find a negotiated peace.
But you also know there are thresholds in wars at which negotiations become non-productive.
As the war has progressed a few things have become made clear or better known to the nations and populations invested in its outcome.
First would be the original intents and desired goals of Putin and possibly a majority of the Russian people. Their desire to resurrect novorossiya.
Partly at fault are those in the west who did not recognize or were unable to conceive that this would be entertained as a plausible ambition for Russia.

From the outside looking in when I saw reports of these historic yearnings I regarded them as political slogans to encourage and mollify a disgruntled or disinterested citizenry.
So bad on me.
Even right before the war broke out I regarded these sloganeering as just that. That Russia actually did just want a buffer in the east where ethnic Russians were the majority.
It has become clear though that reclaiming novorossiya and once again establishing Russian rule over the Slavic regions has always been the goal.

So faced with that reality where or how can negotiations begin? When it has become fairly obvious this is Russian leaderships intention how can Ukraine or Poland Estonia Romania Latvia Lithuania Slovakia Czechia Moldavia Bulgaria support or take seriously any negotiated peace with Russia.
Most of those nations are nato nations. How can NATO take seriously any peace negotiations with Russia?

I believe the PM of Estonia summed up the realities of the geopolitical power struggle here. Russia must lose!
Realize full well that sentiment comes from a very small nation who has no geopolitical ambitions at this time other than to survive.

So the question then becomes how and when this loss must be effected.
Is it now in Ukraine?
Or should nato adopt a stalling maneuver with Ukraine while it rearms.
It’s pretty evident that most of the nato nations are already beginning the process of rearming.

The US has stood up the 56th field artillery fires command for Europe and Africa which will be stationed in Germany and probably deployed in multiple E European nations. This was the command that fielded the Pershing missiles.
Trump withdrew the US from the INF because it was obvious to most that Russia had already abandoned it with the Iskanders.
There are two separate missile systems slated for this command.
One is already in the training phase with army units and production is underway to deploy them early next year.

My recommendation would be all ahead full in the rearming of nato The aggressive deployment of US French and British nuclear capabilities. Not in a harassing manner but get them to sea. Stand up the bomber fleet out of Whitman and Barksdale in regular flight patrols and nato member visits.
And due the damm annual minuteman rocket launch.

Arm and train Ukraine as much as they wish and can utilize. Continue to provide them with real time signal and satellite intel.
After some reading this weekend there is a chance that with the inflow of heavy artillery and armor Ukraine might be more ready to counter a massed Russian campaign than I thought. They seem to think they are.
Lastly I still believe that NATO has to make a clear and unambiguous statement that any use of tactical nukes in Ukraine by Russia will be responded to in kind. Not some stupid false flag oh this might happen. Just a clear and concise statement of policy.

Look I know Ukraine isn’t a nato member by let’s be honest for all practical intents NATO has responded as harshly and effectively as then can without M-1 Abrams and German Leopard MBT roaming the Ukrainian countryside and warthogs flying strafing runs on Russia armor without them being a member of NATO.

So negotiate a settlement and let Ukraine lick their wounds and assure them we’ll get em the next time?
Or do what you do when war is forced upon you you keep pounding away anyway you can until the aggressor sues for peace or withdraws.
 
It's also interesting to see a similar dehumanisation of Russians by Ukrainian supporters similar to how Russia are calling them nazis, as well as even actual calls for violence toward Russian civilians. Not by them, but more generally on Twitter, just look in the threads of the Bryansk stuff. I do wonder if things would have been similar if Twitter existed during WW2.
 
WeirdnessUnfolds said:
It's also interesting to see a similar dehumanisation of Russians by Ukrainian supporters similar to how Russia are calling them nazis, as well as even actual calls for violence toward Russian civilians. Not by them, but more generally on Twitter, just look in the threads of the Bryansk stuff. I do wonder if things would have been similar if Twitter existed during WW2.
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You know it’s not unusual or unrealistic of people and nations engaged in war to dehumanize their opponent.
They are after all faced with plotting and preparing to kill or maim them.
For third party observers that’s different.
 
Do you think the US secretary of State and Defense would go into a war zone without a massive security presence and overflight protection?
 
bartok said:
It's no easy for me to respond to your post, because I don't master English enough to be really exhaustive.
I think that the self determination you speak about, would require a lot of clarifications. I think that NATO has searched the confrontation with Russia and that nothing has be done to avoid the war. None of the Russian concerns has been heard.
But it's not that the point.
You say that Ukraine is not a Nazi ruled Country, because, in short words, there are some Nazis, but the majority is only nationalist. We have to see, actually, if this "majority" is really the majority, or rather it is the part that is currently driving the Country. But, where is the difference between nationalist and Nazis, when the nationalists use Nazis forces to achieve their goals? Poroshenko wasn't a Nazi, but his speeches was very similar to the Nazi's one, when he said that Russophones people woudn't have pensions, Ukranians yes, Russophones chidren woundn't go to school and would live in cellars. They are not Nazi the teachers that said to the Ukranian children to marginalize other children with Russian names, but what is the difference? Where is the line between nationalism and Fascism?

As an Italian, all these stuff particularly hurts me. We, the Italians, we have invented the Fascism, nobody else. we were no less bad than Germans: only much more incapable. so this situation touches our unresolved issues, as what is happening in Ukraine touches their unsolved issues. All what is happening touch the unsolved issues of Europe. So the argument is very hard and complex. Practically, at the end of the war, no one of the Italian Fascists has been trialed: we solved all our problems with an amnesty and, having put Mussolini up side down and having exiliated the king, we could tell ourself to have punished the guilties. But, seeing at 80 years of distance, that we give weapons to the Nazis, seeing that in the same newspapers that were Fascist at that time, that NOW they defend swastika because is a "solar symbol", seeing that Russian people are beaten, marginalized, expropriated, I have to ask me if maybe we are excactly the same that 80 years ago, in an other way. We can say it as you like, that in Ukraine they are not all Nazis, but many they are. And we, the Italian, we are allied with the Nazis, again: it's something to think about. Again, we are interventionists, as then, when we could have been more neutral, as Swiss, that refuse to give weapons to Ukraine. But not us: we do.

And I also ask to me how Russian could read our behaviour. Italy is more important then Italians think. We feel good, but we were par of the Axis, we have invaded USSR with Germans and we repented on the 8 September 1943 only because we took slaps in the face on all the fronts during all the war. But have we changed? What have to think Russians about Italy that give weapons to the Nazis? I think that "deep down", in an Italian way, we are not so different compared to the Ukrainan nationalists.
Click to expand...
Did you know that there is a nazi party in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Nazi_Party For free people all political parties are allowed. Very few except the extreme far right would ever adhere to their ideology though.
 
Obreid said:
You know it’s not unusual or unrealistic of people and nations engaged in war to dehumanize their opponent.
They are after all faced with plotting and preparing to kill or maim them.
For third party observers that’s different.
Click to expand...
The United States dehumanized the Japanese during World War 2 and the North Vietnamese as well, plus others I'm sure.

Every culture does this.
 
RiffRaff said:
The United States dehumanized the Japanese during World War 2 and the North Vietnamese as well, plus others I'm sure.

Every culture does this.
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War is a fact of life it doesn’t matter if your talking about superpowers being mean. Or tribal groups debating the delicacies of Long Pig.
Tribes cultures nations and cultures always demonize their enemy.
It is a psychological tool to enable them to engage in the violence war requires.
I might sound cold or sociopathic here.
But conflict happens peaceful non war like culture only remain that way because they are not threatened by other groups. Like Tibet they usually just get swallowed up whole.
 
RiffRaff said:
The United States dehumanized the Japanese during World War 2 and the North Vietnamese as well, plus others I'm sure.

Every culture does this.
Click to expand...
I agree and to further the conversation on how warring nations tend to dehumanize each other, the Japanese dehumanized the Chinese during WW2 as well as non-Japanese prisoners of war. This tends to happen in any war time scenario. The Soviets dehumanized the Ukrainians in the 1930s and are now just repeating that today. History is full of things happening again and again. Like you said, all cultures do this it seems.
 
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