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UA-RU-NATO War & Ukraine Peace Talks | Discussions

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Cilvilt_beredskap said:
Not what I exactly meant. Putin wants to use the deal from him to be able to get a more favourable peace for Russia. It's like if the US allowed North Korea to annex or take political control of South Korea after the Korean war since they can sell more resources. Or if it happened with Nazi Germany separate peacing with the US allowing control of northern France and keeping Vichy France because they sit on more resources than France and thus have a right to invade neighbours as long as they can make deals.
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Maybe but with a potential investment and economic stake of the US in Ukraine it’s not exactly abandoning Ukraine to be invaded later. “A vested interest and a trip wire”.
This war is going to end, soon or in a couple of years, this is a given. Do you position and posture for what happens afterwards, or just continue with the I’m pissed off my sense of justice is offended.

I am fully aware of the risk of doing anything with developing russsias mining and hydrocarbon sector and the risk associated, there real.
But again what do you do? Allow China to develop them with Russia.

The west has struggled with building a workable trust and relationship with Russia not just during the Putin years, or even the Soviets. It is centuries old.
We can’t kill each other or conquer the other. The have tried that repeated and it always ends with two bloodied and worn out bulls exhausted to weak to continue.

So what do you do?
Setting the playing field and negotiating in advance for post war agreements is better than arguing over the crumbs
 
OReid said:
Maybe but with a potential investment and economic stake of the US in Ukraine it’s not exactly abandoning Ukraine to be invaded later. “A vested interest and a trip wire”.
This war is going to end, soon or in a couple of years, this is a given. Do you position and posture for what happens afterwards, or just continue with the I’m pissed off my sense of justice is offended.

I am fully aware of the risk of doing anything with developing russsias mining and hydrocarbon sector and the risk associated, there real.
But again what do you do? Allow China to develop them with Russia.

The west has struggled with building a workable trust and relationship with Russia not just during the Putin years, or even the Soviets. It is centuries old.
We can’t kill each other or conquer the other. The have tried that repeated and it always ends with two bloodied and worn out bulls exhausted to weak to continue.

So what do you do?
Setting the playing field and negotiating in advance for post war agreements is better than arguing over the crumbs
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I fully agree that negotiating with Russia is good, but given Putin's track record of breaking agreements and most of the time acting in bad faith with arguments that are imperialist, I get the feeling that if a thawing of relations including lessened sanctions and no persecution for war crimes happen it will be an incentive for Putin's government to try more, especially with a potentially weakened US nuclear umbrella. Unless there is a real tripwire and vested interest like you're saying, but Putin's goal has always been for the west to fully abandon Ukraine.
 
Cilvilt_beredskap said:
I fully agree that negotiating with Russia is good, but given Putin's track record of breaking agreements and most of the time acting in bad faith with arguments that are imperialist, I get the feeling that if a thawing of relations including lessened sanctions and no persecution for war crimes happen it will be an incentive for Putin's government to try more, especially with a potentially weakened US nuclear umbrella. Unless there is a real tripwire and vested interest like you're saying, but Putin's goal has always been for the west to fully abandon Ukraine.
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All true but we are still faced with question of how to move forward.
Placing US economic interest firmly in Ukraine. Rather than just shadowy backroom deals with oligarchs in Ukraine is a trip wire that if Putin is going to agree to a peace deal then that is part of it.

Stationing European troops in Ukraine is another.

Remember in negotiation's, what actual negotiations have to occur. You cannot bitch slap the person across the table and tell them it is a great deal take it.

If whom you are negotiating with has not been completely subdued. Then you have to allow them to save face at some level.

If the west is not willing to go all in and fight with Ukraine to drive Russia from pre 2022 boarders. What are we left with?
 
DarkNoon said:
A satellite company owned by Elon Musk has the inside track to potentially take over a large federal contract to modernize the US air traffic communications system - AP.
https://twitter.com/x/status/1894838439893189031
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Trump only making money for himself and his freinds who enable him via Gov contracts so blatantly obvious, cookie cutter case right here. 🤮

Off topic but related; Cutting taxes for the ultra rich and funding it by stealing from the less fortunate social safety nets. Its not even saving anyone money, only further adding to the debt, and harming Americans. Truly disgusting.
 
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DarkNoon said:
Trump only making money for himself and his freinds who enable him via Gov contracts so blatantly obvious, cookie cutter case right here. 🤮

Off topic but related; Cutting taxes for the ultra rich and funding it by stealing from the less fortunate social safety nets. Its not even saving anyone money, only further adding to the debt, and harming Americans. Truly disgusting.
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Why do democrats always accuse their opponents of doing what they are doing? Don’t they realize we have our own scams running?
 
Torch said:
My career in the service as a soldier, NCO and Officer take me this gem: if it’s stupid, but works, it’s not stupid.
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I think the point is not whether it is stupid or not, it is more that it works, but the situation reflects the lack of mechanized transport in Russian logistics, of course I could be wrong.
 
alphaecho said:
I think the point is not whether it is stupid or not, it is more that it works, but the situation reflects the lack of mechanized transport in Russian logistics, of course I could be wrong.
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You are right, of course.

I was just admiring the troop's covered in sweat and mud, now dealing with this to get supplies distributed. The cloud of flies and the rotten meat and overwhelming smell of bowel and ammonia trying to coax the train (presumably) to the distribution point, while being short of everything but the enemy…
 
DEFCON Warning System said:
This is why I say Trump is a great President but a rotten diplomat.
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Why? We got the deal. He just a different kind of Diplomat. He says the most outrageous thing that a person might believe.

Then he peels his opponent off the ceiling and pats them on the head. Seems to work better than bowing and being subservient.
 
news-pravda.com

️ Zaluzhny promised to continue the conflict in Ukraine

Ukrainian General Valeriy Zaluzhny, who is tipped to be Zelensky's successor, spoke at the Greek Catholic Cathedral in London, unexpectedly turning the church pulpit into a political tribune. "This war is not over. Ukraine will not surrender. With...
news-pravda.com news-pravda.com
 
DarkNoon said:
Russian Puppet Says What?;
Trump: "NATO you can forget about, that is probably the reason why still whole thing started," he said. After that VP Vance said that Trump will hold private talks with Russia and Ukraine about this.
Video:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1894819688527327481
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Why does he continue to hesitate to put the blame on Russia for their unprovoked full scale invasion of a sovereign country that we had security guarantees with? Why does he continue to ostracize us from our allies instead of being strong AND compassionate? Sure you might strong arm them into paying more but what happens when those european countries that we have scorned form their own alliance because they are tired of being bossed around by Donald? They form a stronger relationship with China, that's what I'm betting on.
 
Peter Griffin said:
Why does he continue to hesitate to put the blame on Russia for their unprovoked full scale invasion of a sovereign country that we had security guarantees with? Why does he continue to ostracize us from our allies instead of being strong AND compassionate? Sure you might strong arm them into paying more but what happens when those european countries that we have scorned form their own alliance because they are tired of being bossed around by Donald? They form a stronger relationship with China, that's what I'm betting on.
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Because the United States lied to Russia and caused this (from Russia’s pov)

We did lie. Straight up, bold face lie.

I would have lied to them also as the assholes deserved it and more but we swore: No eastern expansion of NATO (we were sitting in West Germany at the time and convincing the Russians to throw in the towel and go home without a war both sides planned for 45 years)
 
Honestly a bit confused as to why Zelensky wasn't at least a bit more nuanced today and could have at least gotten an investment form the US that Donald might at least want to protect somehow. However, I'd say he's a way more skilled diplomat than Vance or Trump and might have either not have expected the pushback or know that European leaders will wonder what the fuck Trump's deal is and want to support Ukraine more. To me Zelensky was the one disrespected, not exactly Trump.
 
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