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🗣️ | UA-NATO/RU | Crisis Environment | ANALYSIS OF REPORTS

william said:
Didn't Russia at some point want to join NATO or maybe it was the EU I don't remember, and was denied? That was a mistake IMO. A paranoid person or country is dangerous because you don't know for sure what they will do.
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One of the biggest failures of US foreign policy in American history. We had a historic opportunity to turn Russia into an ally and instead we just let the crime bosses take over.

The other even bigger failure of US foreign policy also involved Russia at the end of world war two. Russia fought with the Allies on both the German front and the Japanese front. Truman fucked up that opportunity, which is directly responsible for where we're at now.
 
RiffRaff said:
One of the biggest failures of US foreign policy in American history. We had a historic opportunity to turn Russia into an ally and instead we just let the crime bosses take over.

The other even bigger failure of US foreign policy also involved Russia at the end of world war two. Russia fought with the Allies on both the German front and the Japanese front. Truman fucked up that opportunity, which is directly responsible for where we're at now.
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So you believe Stalin was going to respect the Yalta plan and facilitate free and fair elections in what came to be known as the eastern block nations.

I’m not saying there is no culpability by the Americans. But international relations are not so black and white.

Just as with Ukraine today. Putin was in-fact very clear about a color revolution and removing Yanukovych in Ukraine. And our intelligence community and command didn’t take him serious.
That is not a condemnation of western efforts to develop and influence relations within Ukraine.
It just is what it is, nation states act in self-interest, sometimes they do well sometimes they don’t.
 
Publius said:
So you believe Stalin was going to respect the Yalta plan and facilitate free and fair elections in what came to be known as the eastern block nations.
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I believe the US didn't even try due to the perception that they were now invincible being the only country on earth to have nuclear weapons technology, and by the time the Soviets had acquired it, it was too late. The mutual distrust and paranoia was already too big a hurdle to overcome.
 
RiffRaff said:
I believe the US didn't even try due to the perception that they were now invincible being the only country on earth to have nuclear weapons technology, and by the time the Soviets had acquired it, it was too late. The mutual distrust and paranoia was already too big a hurdle to overcome.
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That’s certainly true about mutual distrust. There was a 200+year history on both sides for that.

That still doesn’t make it a solely the fault of America.
The Soviets began installing Soviet controlled government in many eastern block nations before the war was even over.
They annexed the three Baltic nations in 1940.

So they broke their word of provisional governments and free elections sometimes before the war was even over and before the Potsdam conference?
And that was because they knew Truman wasn’t going to act in good faith ahead of time.

As far as the atomic bomb. I can only say that if Truman was truly intending to US the bomb to coheres Stalin he would have used it on Soviet forces or in North Korea. Instead he fired a General for publicly calling for the nuking of the chines at the Yalu River and Manchuria itself.

Did the US employ espionage tactics to subvert the Soviets? Absolutely! Just as the Soviets were also doing at the same time.
 
Torch said:
No. Not for a Ukraine city,

Not a Nato Ally

Not a major (non NATO) ally

The USA, China and Russia have bent each over hard during the endless regional and bushfire wars.

We (all of us) have never used tactical nuclear weapons to improve our position in these wars, nor have we use nuclear weapons to harm someone’s position in the small war.

I think the writing is on the wall and there’s a secret handshake. We only trade cities for like cities of equal or greater value. Second world cities not apply.
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And that is why any eventual use and escalation with nukes will likely be a consequence of circumstances and missteps.
Not any logical ladder of escalation.

And it has been this uncontrollable what if that has kept nations away from it happening.

Remember the Soviet Lt Colonel who instead of reporting American ballistic missiles in bound. Which would have potentially triggered a launch on warning response. Instead judged it to be a reporting error.
One man one judgement call, which he later admitted was a 50/50 gut reaction he made that night in 83.

As far as secret handshake, trading our own like cities for like cities. There is an unfair and selfish reason for that. It’s not to minimize the loss of a non-nuclear allied city.
But the knowledge that if and when nuclear states start incinerating each others cities then all bets are off and be prepared to cover your head or grab your ankles.
 
IMO Any president that dis-allowed or failed to use everything we had, would be hanged (maybe just shot) after being impeached and found guilty of Treason.

Thats why foe’s “trading cities” is only a hollywood movie. Self preservation is strong in the weasels that make it to the top.
 
Publius said:
That’s certainly true about mutual distrust. There was a 200+year history on both sides for that.

That still doesn’t make it a solely the fault of America.
The Soviets began installing Soviet controlled government in many eastern block nations before the war was even over.
They annexed the three Baltic nations in 1940.

So they broke their word of provisional governments and free elections sometimes before the war was even over and before the Potsdam conference?
And that was because they knew Truman wasn’t going to act in good faith ahead of time.

As far as the atomic bomb. I can only say that if Truman was truly intending to US the bomb to coheres Stalin he would have used it on Soviet forces or in North Korea. Instead he fired a General for publicly calling for the nuking of the chines at the Yalu River and Manchuria itself.

Did the US employ espionage tactics to subvert the Soviets? Absolutely! Just as the Soviets were also doing at the same time.
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Remember: RUSSIA started WW2 by invading Poland from the East and meeting the Germans coming from the west.

They were NEVER trusted or even liked. (Probably unfair as Im sure many Russians are fine people)
 
Torch said:
Remember: RUSSIA started WW2 by invading Poland from the East and meeting the Germans coming from the west.

They were NEVER trusted or even liked. (Probably unfair as Im sure many Russians are fine people)
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Not to go off topic but Germany started the European theater of what was to become WW2 when it invaded Poland from the West. The Soviet Union invaded Poland from the east roughly 2 weeks later after the European theater ignited. This was in accordance with a secret clause in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact between Germany and the Soviet Union. I would not place blame for starting WW2 on Russia's doorstep. Sure, the USSR didn't help. But, German action was the catalyst.
 
teekay99 said:
Not to go off topic but Germany started the European theater of what was to become WW2 when it invaded Poland from the West. The Soviet Union invaded Poland from the east roughly 2 weeks later after the European theater ignited. This was in accordance with a secret clause in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact between Germany and the Soviet Union. I would not place blame for starting WW2 on Russia's doorstep. Sure, the USSR didn't help. But, German action was the catalyst.
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IMO

I disagree. It was planed and was to avoid “blue on blue” (and so Germany could cheat and take more. Russia absolutely was an ally and combatant at the start of WW2 in Europe.

But this is a myopic Eurocentric view.

War started in Manchuria in 1931 with Japans invasion of the same.

It became WW2 on July 7, 1937 with Japans invasion of China in total. The Chinese fought an unbelievably brutal war with Japan using poison gas and nerve agents. The Japanese really were complete rat bastards yet in their minds they treated the US slightly better since they knew the war would end either through negotiation or with their defeat. You can probably hear me laughing because I’m thinking of the Japanese trying to treat our people better which is only replaceable by death.
 
teekay99 said:
Not to go off topic but Germany started the European theater of what was to become WW2 when it invaded Poland from the West. The Soviet Union invaded Poland from the east roughly 2 weeks later after the European theater ignited.
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I don’t believe it’s off topic if you’re discussing warfare in a general sense with the treaties that started and ended it, while we’re analyzing some of the same members attempting due to the same just 80 years later.
 
teekay99 said:
Not to go off topic but Germany started the European theater of what was to become WW2 when it invaded Poland from the West. The Soviet Union invaded Poland from the east roughly 2 weeks later after the European theater ignited. This was in accordance with a secret clause in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact between Germany and the Soviet Union. I would not place blame for starting WW2 on Russia's doorstep. Sure, the USSR didn't help. But, German action was the catalyst.
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The German invasion of western Poland AND Russias invasion of eastern Poland was part of the protracted pre war negotiations between the two.
That German initiated hostilities is just a technicallyz. When prewar negotiations had divided up Eastern Europe from Czech Romania to Finland for annexation by by Germany and Russias.


As a side note Britian and France were aware of at least some of these deals over annexing Eastern Europe nations. And regarding some of the deals between Russia and Germany with tacit approval approved of by France and Britain.

And for further clarity the United States was not involved or advised on the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact.

As a further side note of the duplicity of both German and Soviet governments was this quote from Ribbentrop.

On August 3, German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentroptold Soviet diplomats that "there was no problem between the Baltic and the Black Sea that could not be solved between the two of us"
The Germans discussed prior hostility between the nations in the 1930s. They addressed the common ground of anti-capitalismand stated "there is one common element in the ideology of Germany, Italy and the Soviet Union: opposition to the capitalist democracies" "neither we nor Italy have anything in common with the capitalist west" and "it seems to us rather unnatural that a socialist state would stand on the side of the western democracies"

And here we are still today disputing with DSA and progressives on the evils of capitalism. Seems we have yet again after 80 years have come full circle.

Are we going to have to fight another WW to put socialism back in the grave once again. All while blaming the failures of 20th century Europe Russia and Asia on the US.

boring !!!!
 
GBS61 said:
I think you're completely off base.
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Ok that’s fair, we’re all free to disagree.

Yet here we are still arguing about the same things we were 80-100 years ago.
Colonialism imposed over parts of Europe with the imperial expectations that accompany it. A dividing of the spoils.
Eurasian vs occidental prejudices.
Socialist ( the Soviets, Germans and Italy) all maneuvering against a common enemy (western democracies)

The more I study and ruminate on the matter. The more convinced I am the US should abandon NATO and let the children continue to squabble.

Why because 80 years later Europe and Russia are still bumping chest over who gets what on the Risk board. Or more precisely who is going to exert the greatest leverage and control over the weaker nations of Europe.
 
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