Russia v. USA Worldviews & Nuclear Security

[Fascist lite]

Completely agree on Russia's position, including alleged reports on work on Cobalt nuclear bomb (Status-6 Oceanic Multipurpose System, e.g., Poseidon torpedo Статус-6 nuclear-powered, nuclear-armed UUV) to "produce enhanced amounts of radioactive fallout," and other alleged "superweapons" - the only real question there is it really bunker-proof, and how could they test it and survive?)

But we go back to the Cold War history of the USSR, we have been facing routine threats of 20, 25 MT ICBMs since the 1970s and continuing through 1990. A Cobalt nuke could be worse than a 20/25 MT ICBM, but at some point how much worse can it get from what we have been facing for the past 60 years? It may be technically not be as bad as Cobalt nuke, but the destruction is pretty complete.

For example, USA survived USSR threats of: R-36M2 Voevoda (SS-18 Mod 6) (20MT), R-36MUTTKh (SS-18 Mod 3) (20MT), R-36M (SS-18 Mod 1) [15B86] (24MT); R-36M (SS-18 Mod 1) [15B86] (10-20MT), R-36 8K67 Tsiklon (SS-9 Mod 2) [8F675] (25MT); R-36 8K67 Tsiklon (SS-9 Mod 1) (20MT); R-36 8K67 Tsiklon (SS-9 Mod 1) (18MT). Which of these were not plausible "first strike" weapons?

[Not to mention the bioterror horrors of chimeric and weaponized diseases of all different kinds, as Ken Alibek and others described.]

And USA survived with a COLD War, and not getting into direct conflict with the USSR. We had lots of good reasons to choose otherwise, but outside of the Cuba threat, we managed the nuclear threat conflict to deescalate, and even the Cuban Missile Crisis - a direct threat to USA - was deescalated. That didn't make USA weak compared to USSR - it allowed us to survive. No small accomplishment in retrospective analysis. IMO - if Russia must be totally conquered, then that needs to be a multipolar activity, not simply a unipolar USA-led effort, which is where we are today.

Well if you would look to the dozen or so European nations working with nato carefully to the same end. I would say that this is a multinational /multi-polar effort.
This just being about the US vs Russia is straight up Russian propaganda.

And no one besides internet buffoons are calling for Russia to be conquered or government overturned. Except maybe Ukraine wanting Putin gone. And after six months of war I don’t completely blame them.
There has yet to be one call to invade or strike Russia with the intent to invaded them or overthrow them. Prevent them from reinforcing their troops In Ukraine.

This war is not about defeating or collapsing Russia never was.
“This” war is about removing them from Ukraine.
If Russia or their government feels as though they might be overthrown. It will be because of their ineptitude and the russian people. Whether the Russian government stands or falls it is completely up to them.

Personally having watched this whole thing progress it’s going just about as I had expected. But you’ll just have to take my word for that. Defend in depth bleed them with shoulder launch air and armor missiles , improver the offensive weaponry amd begin pushing Russia back.
Till Russia has exhausted its Potemkin military to a stand still.
Then they will have to decide are they going to slap the entire world in the face and resort to nuclear weapons.
This is not some existential battle for the sole of the world over a unipolar world. this is almost the entire continent of Europe the US Canada Australia Japan Demonstrating to Russia their actions are Unacceptable.
And because they acted militarily the response unfortunately has to be in kind.
Dialogue and negotiations did nothing to remove them from Crimea or Donetsk or for that matter stop them from trying again on a larger scale.

 

[REALHumanRights]

This just being about the US vs Russia is straight up Russian propaganda.

There is a very real Russia vs. USA conflict issue. We have had this issue for 60 years.
For USA and world security, we need to be able to have honest conversations about it.
Without just silencing any such conversations by labeling it as "Russian propaganda."

 

[REALHumanRights]

Interesting (?) Politico article with diverse opinions on USA nuclear threat

‘More dangerous than the Cuban missile crisis’

Most nuclear experts and former officials NatSec Daily spoke to don’t think President Joe Biden's comparison of today’s dangers to the Cuban missile crisis and the impending threat of nuclear “Armageddon” is overblown.

www.politico.com

 

[Fascist lite]

There is a very real Russia vs. USA conflict issue. We have had this issue for 60 years.
For USA and world security, we need to be able to have honest conversations about it.
Without just silencing any such conversations by labeling it as "Russian propaganda."

If that is the case we also have to openly discuss European nations dissatisfaction with Russias action this year. Or by your proposing their irrelevant or not in their own way vested and making a deliberate conscious decision.

One of the more subtle Russian reasons for NOT joining nato was that it was believed it would have been a further subservient step towards the US.
Personally I continue to believe Russias persistent anti-US policy has more to do with some Russian leaders ego and less to do with security or any conflict issues.
There I’ve discussed the US/Russia dichotomy

This is a Centuries old cultural battle between Russia and Europe and now it’s the US.
Russia wants what it believes is conceives as their territorial right. The nations caught in the imagined ancient imaginary map be dammed.

 

[REALHumanRights]

This is a Centuries old cultural battle between Russia and Europe and now it’s the US.
Russia wants what it believes is conceives as their territorial right. The nations caught in the imagined ancient imaginary map be dammed.

I understand your position. That is a legitimate and interesting side-issue to what this forum topic is addressing: the USSR/Russia vs. USA conflict, which has been ongoing for at a nuclear level for 60+ years. But note when USA had the superior position on nuclear weapons on the USSR, it could afford its current foreign policy. That was in the 1950s. This is the root of the issue in today's Russia vs. USA conflict between nuclear super powers. This is not to say that European nations don't have rights to soveignty and ancient issues, but that the only reason this is a serious USA threat is due to the nuclear super power nations status, which changes everything. I can have compassion and support Ukraine defense, and also make my own priority the lives and safety of the American people.

Sometimes the world does change. We don't compare horse races to racing cars, we don't compare racing cars to rockets.
The world does change, and our reflection on what makes sense in our current reality of change cannot simply ignore the world we live in.

Regarding your comment, however, despite that the 1950s superior nuclear position of the USA, the USA allowed the USSR to invade Hungary, just like the USA allowed the USSR to invade Czechoslovakia. This is not opinion. It is historical fact. The situation is not the same as the Ukraine Republic. But it is still notable.
We could have also made arguments for freedom/defense Hungary and Czech people. The USA governments of those times made choices based on the security position of the nation at that time - even when USA had superior nuclear forces.

The former USSR/Russia views the world differently than the USA. This different view significantly exacerbates the situation, which they view as a threat of a "USA-based hegemony" over the world, and they view that they have had enough of that. That does not in any way make the Russia cruel invasion of Ukraine as right. But we need to remember the views of the enemies that we fight, as part of every strategic battle.

The idea that today's battle that Russia is merely a Europe issue is wishful thinking. Many billions of dollars later and massive threat to USA public, I also wish it was the case. I can imagine 40,000,000 Americans in poverty who might wish this. Certainly those rightly concerned about the continuing 60+ years of USSR/Russia threats of nuclear war against the USA might wish this. But unfortunately, USA was not just a founder or leader of NATO in 1949 and since, it has been primary nation. Europe has 70 years to change that USA paternalistic equation. European nations decided they had other priorities. Certainly, this is / has been understandable.

But in a new war with Russia in 2022, the greatest pool of victims that will be held hostage will be from the clear and unambiguous nuclear threats - and God Forbid strikes - against the 350 million American people - a continent away. We can support the defense of the current Ukraine victims from Russia's invasion, and realize that a Russia/USA war has real consequences for Americans - and short of a Russia/USA war, that USA law currently requires USA to maintain boundaries to defensive support to Ukraine. This is based on the USA law in Congress' authorization of funds, since 2020, again in 2022, and ultimately USA Constitution.

Instead of the White House dismissal of such threats, I wish a true Department of DEFENSE and DHS would be working to protect the American people. Their lives also matter as well.

 

[REALHumanRights]

October 9, 2022: Biden's warning of nuclear 'Armageddon' reflects the 'stakes' with Russia, not an imminent threat: Kirby

Biden's warning of nuclear 'Armageddon' reflects the 'stakes' with Russia, not an imminent threat: Kirby

Biden's warning of possible nuclear "Armageddon" with Russia reflected the stakes amid Putin's invasion of Ukraine not an imminent threat, John Kirby said on "This Week"

abcnews.go.com

October 9, 2022: White House press downplays Biden's comments on Russian nuclear threat

 

[REALHumanRights]

In October 7, 2022, Wall Street Journal, Walter Russell Mead ultimately tries to compare USA POTUS Biden's need to oppose Russia's nuclear threat, as USA POTUS JFK did in 1962. But the situtation is entirely different. In 1962, JFK was opposing USSR-provided long-range missiles threating the USA homeland - 200 miles from USA. In 2022, POTUS Biden is opposing Russia invasion in Ukraine - over 4600 miles from USA.

The argument is understandable, but the circumstances for USA security are entirely different, and the perception of endless unipolar position is tenuous.
We can respect POTUS Biden's career as a Senator giving speeches, while asking if his TOTAL lack of executive experience, obvious illness, and the inexperienced support team that he has (which completely does not understand the USSR military mind) -- is really in a position in 2022 to deter Russia from nuclear weapon use.

 

[intel-bank]

---image

The real fear is, when the chips are down and the red light's blinking, The US wont really want to sacrifice Chicago for Hamburg - The Day After

I say, the REAL fear is that Putin thinks that way. One Nuke, America MUST respond or the world will be dominated.

 

[REALHumanRights]

BBC's Steve Rosenberg "Russian TV tonight: 'The world has frozen on the threshold of Nuclear Armageddon'. Anchor blames US & UK (omitting that it’s Moscow that’s been engaged in nuclear sabre-rattling.) The only positive here: at least there’s a question mark after “Nuclear Armageddon” on the screen."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1579240064730943488

 

[REALHumanRights]

Russia State Media Escalates Anti-Satellite (ASAT) Threat

Russia state media propaganda Ria Novosti - State Duma deputy Mikhail Sheremet calls for attacks on USA satellite systems to impact USA military systems used by Ukraine. "It is worth extinguishing the NATO satellite constellation, which is currently used by Ukrainian troops for reconnaissance and guidance of missile strikes using the HIMARS MLRS in the Kherson, Zaporozhye regions, as well as the DPR and LPR. We have weapons capable of doing this, including a complex of Russian laser weapons 'Peresvet.' These satellites today are destroying our people, so we have every right to extinguish and disable them, as they contribute to aggression against Russia"

 

[REALHumanRights]

I had not previously seen this on the WSJ by Yorktown Institute's Seth Cropsey "The U.S. Should Show It Can Win a Nuclear War" -- "The ability to win is the key. By arming surface ships with tactical nuclear weapons as well as attacking a nuclear-missile sub and thus reducing Russian second-strike ability, the U.S. undermines Russia’s ability to fight a nuclear war. The Soviets were deeply afraid of a pre-emptive strike by NATO. That fear has morphed, under Mr. Putin’s regime, into a fixation on the “color revolutions,” pro-democracy uprisings in former Soviet republics. Jeopardizing Russian second-strike capability would tangibly raise the military stakes. Mr. Putin could no longer unleash his nuclear arsenal with impunity. Instead, he would need to reckon with the possibility that NATO could decapitate the Kremlin—yes, suffering casualties in the process [the understatement of the century], but still decapitate it."

Opinion | The U.S. Should Show It Can Win a Nuclear War

Washington might study Cold War-era practices that had a major effect on Soviet policy making.

www.wsj.com

 

[Fascist lite]

I had not previously seen this on the WSJ by Yorktown Institute's Seth Cropsey "The U.S. Should Show It Can Win a Nuclear War" -- "The ability to win is the key. By arming surface ships with tactical nuclear weapons as well as attacking a nuclear-missile sub and thus reducing Russian second-strike ability, the U.S. undermines Russia’s ability to fight a nuclear war. The Soviets were deeply afraid of a pre-emptive strike by NATO. That fear has morphed, under Mr. Putin’s regime, into a fixation on the “color revolutions,” pro-democracy uprisings in former Soviet republics. Jeopardizing Russian second-strike capability would tangibly raise the military stakes. Mr. Putin could no longer unleash his nuclear arsenal with impunity. Instead, he would need to reckon with the possibility that NATO could decapitate the Kremlin—yes, suffering casualties in the process [the understatement of the century], but still decapitate it."

Opinion | The U.S. Should Show It Can Win a Nuclear War

Washington might study Cold War-era practices that had a major effect on Soviet policy making.

www.wsj.com

This has been planned for and debated for awhile now. Not as a first strike option but as a contingency if we become involved in a situation like this.
It’s war planning and a decapitation strike would only become more relevant today.
I don’t see it as being viable or necessary yet by any means.
As long as Ukraine can bare up and are willing to fight, and the west can arm them. Up the weapons choices to them and keep prosecuting the war.

 

[Yingyang]

Anyone noticed the rise in amount of American soldiers protesting online about this war.
Eg. Saying where they served and that they don't believe for a minute this is about Ukraine or Ukrainian people simply because in all honesty it is about Russia and Putin. And if the West do not stop what they are doing, they will soon realise they aren't dealing with the previous countries they have recent experience with. They are convinced this can and will only end one way. Ww3 full launch.

 

[Fascist lite]

Anyone noticed the rise in amount of American soldiers protesting online about this war.
Eg. Saying where they served and that they don't believe for a minute this is about Ukraine or Ukrainian people simply because in all honesty it is about Russia and Putin. And if the West do not stop what they are doing, they will soon realise they aren't dealing with the previous countries they have recent experience with. They are convinced this can and will only end one way. Ww3 full launch.

Yeah they could be trolls, they could be bots, or they could just be mistaken. Or I could, or you could.
There is no significance to this just and an internet ripple.

It could just as easily end with Russias government collapsing and more federation states breaking away.
Really a repeat of the collapse of the Soviet Union on a smaller scale.
Maybe when it’s over what’s left of Russia will no longer have to worry about prospect of ethnic Russians no longer being the ethnic majority of what’s left of Russia.

Nuclear war panic porn was just as widespread during Reagan confrontation and military buildup that eventually choked the Soviets into submission.
They even made a B movie about it.

 

[Yingyang]

Yeah they could be trolls, they could be bots, or they could just be mistaken. Or I could, or you could.
There is no significance to this just and an internet ripple.

It could just as easily end with Russias government collapsing and more federation states breaking away.
Really a repeat of the collapse of the Soviet Union on a smaller scale.
Maybe when it’s over what’s left of Russia will no longer have to worry about prospect of ethnic Russians no longer being the ethnic majority of what’s left of Russia.

Nuclear war panic porn was just as widespread during Reagan confrontation and military buildup that eventually choked the Soviets into submission.
They even made a B movie about it.

You have know idea. Problem with fantasy is it exactly that. Try @saviour or how ever Americans spell it. Only 1 example but he posted his video on last dws twitter release. He clearly is not a bot or any other denial you may have. Non of them are. He is obviously an American soldier as the others out there trying to educate fellow Americans. Then again I don't expect you'll want to hear it or try to hard to find my claim.
for you and the globe.

 

[Fascist lite]

You have know idea. Problem with fantasy is it exactly that. Try @saviour or how ever Americans spell it. Only 1 example but he posted his video on last dws twitter release. He clearly is not a bot or any other denial you may have. Non of them are. He is obviously an American soldier as the others out there trying to educate fellow Americans. Then again I don't expect you'll want to hear it or try to hard to find my claim.
for you and the globe.

I didn’t say they were all trolls or any for that matter.
He could just simply be wrong.
It just makes no difference, nothing any of us say or do is going to change the outcome. Just because someone has an opinion does not mean their correct.

The mistake many in the west make is they confuse Putins claims of the grave injustices against Russia as some defense of national freedom and fighting the good fight against globalism.
That is Q-talk and has always been a trope.

What will be your excuse if he succeeds in Ukraine and uses the same tactic in Estonia or Lithuania?
Will this also just be another nation we just hold up our hands And say “oh well” the risk is just to great or even worse claim he might be justified in doing so.

 

[Yingyang]

I didn’t say they were all trolls or any for that matter.
He could just simply be wrong.
It just makes no difference, nothing any of us say or do is going to change the outcome. Just because someone has an opinion does not mean their correct.

The mistake many in the west make is they confuse Putins claims of the grave injustices against Russia as some defense of national freedom and fighting the good fight against globalism.
That is Q-talk and has always been a trope.

What will be your excuse if he succeeds in Ukraine and uses the same tactic in Estonia or Lithuania?
Will this also just be another nation we just hold up our hands And say “oh well” the risk is just to great or even worse claim he might be justified in doing so.

My excuse is im not in the military I guess . So what is yours, or is blah blah enough.
To be honest I come up with excuses for any of the worlds other regional issues either why should I. Please feel free to list global regional issues and your support alongside each trying to stop or change it. The list will be long no doubt.
But if you miss anything i may ask why and your answer may match mine.

 

[Fascist lite]

My excuse is im not in the military I guess . So what is yours, or is blah blah enough.
To be honest I come up with excuses for any of the worlds other regional issues either why should I. Please feel free to list global regional issues and your support alongside each trying to stop or change it. The list will be long no doubt.
But if you miss anything i may ask why and your answer may match mine.

Yet another example where we do not even speak the same language.
I’ve been open about my support and disagreements I have had with my nations policies. It is not dependent on which political party has control of the White House or what the national mood is.
They are honest assessments of my understanding or judgment.
I’ve been right and I’ve been wrong, but the underlying argument for my positions is not just to rely on being a mocker.
I do not need to go through my opinions and reasons on geopolitical positions.
Because I’ve already spoken out repeatedly for and against them here for the last seven years.

 

[Yingyang]

Nothing new here guys...while Biden represented a possibility (nuclear war) which even if it is remote, it's still always a possibility when you have a war involving a nuclear capable country....you also have to keep in mind that when a geriatric man holds a conference in front of his electors in a closed door events, you can expect everything to come out of his mouth.
He's the guy who tries to shake hands with air.

Oh and don't forget the invitation to dead people.
We may laugh we may deny .
But seriously we should be concerned. And as Americans are concerned they obviously aren't. Which is a worry aswell.

 

[Yingyang]

Yet another example where we do not even speak the same language.
I’ve been open about my support and disagreements I have had with my nations policies. It is not dependent on which political party has control of the White House or what the national mood is.
They are honest assessments of my understanding or judgment.
I’ve been right and I’ve been wrong, but the underlying argument for my positions is not just to rely on being a mocker.
I do not need to go through my opinions and reasons on geopolitical positions.
Because I’ve already spoken out repeatedly for and against them here for the last seven years.

Yes and by now with the years I have been active here you should have realised by now I try to stay neutral in such topics. Giving a little insight to both sides liked or accepted does not phase me in the slightest. As discussion and opinions for some obviously not all can be enjoyed, enlightened and open possibilities of a different train of thought. You see for me propaganda is not something I have ever let take hold. Probably because I don't give it any credit due to it design and purpose. But as I say each to their own and there is that nice big title above our comments identifying who we are before it is read. Choices are always there to skip on past. And those that are enjoy or are open are welcome to have a look. The others well their choices. We all have them. Until we don't.