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Socialism- Fascism- Nationalism - Isolationalism - Liberalism

NuclearID

NuclearID

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Snowfall said:
Except the United States has never even been isolationist.
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Except it was. That's just your incorrect opinion. The president at the time had slightly high ambitions on the world theater. But Congress was fully 110% isolationist before the world wars.

Just because the president at time wanted to do more on the world stage does not make us not isolationist as the people who acutualy matter & dictate the direction of the country (Congress) was 110% isolationist.
 
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DarkNoon said:
Except it was. That's just your incorrect opinion. The president at the time had slightly high ambitions on the world theater. But Congress was fully 110% isolationist before the world wars.

Just because the president at time wanted to do more on the world stage does not make us not isolationist as the people who acutualy matter & dictate the direction of the country (Congress) was 110% isolationist.
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This is just plain wrong. Find me a time in the 1900s the United States was not spending money on foreign aid. It does not exist. There has never been a single point in American history where we have been isolationist.
You mention specifically before the world wars I give you Teddy Roosevelt and the Monroe doctrine, I give you the Washington naval conference, I give you the United States trying to intervene to prevent German civil war in 1921/22, I give you the American loan market to Europe in the 20s, get closer to world war 2 and we have the lend lease act, among many other examples. Was there isolationists in congress? Yes but there always has been and always will be. The belief America was ever isolationist is the biggest lie in American history. People conflate not physically fighting in a war with being isolationist rather than being uninvolved in international matters.
Claiming the president of a country is not who decides if your isolationist is also wrong. The president is chief diplomat he decides how much interaction the country has with foreign governments. Congress passes laws but they are not responsible for diplomacy and foreign relations and thus by nature cannot be solely responsible for being isolationist or not.
 
Snowfall said:
Congress passes laws but they are not responsible for diplomacy and foreign relations and thus by nature cannot be solely responsible for being isolationist or not.
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Congress & the American peoples isolationist sentiment hampered Teddy every step on his foreign policy because... you guessed it, they where and the American people where isolationist at the time prior to the great wars.

As I said the president may had higher ambitious ideas but Congress and the American people where not for it and where indeed isolationist by far the majority sentiment at that time.

Spare me the walk around for the squash faced dictator and his ill fought actions currently defiling America and her allies today.
 
DarkNoon said:
Except it was. That's just your incorrect opinion. The president at the time had slightly high ambitions on the world theater. But Congress was fully 110% isolationist before the world wars.

Just because the president at time wanted to do more on the world stage does not make us not isolationist as the people who acutualy matter & dictate the direction of the country (Congress) was 110% isolationist.
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This was American foreign policy and affairs prior to and after Roosevelt. It was not isolationist in any regard. So please stop post erroneous claims

Milestones in the History of U.S. Foreign Relations - Office of the Historian

history.state.gov 3.0 shell
history.state.gov history.state.gov

Milestones in the History of U.S. Foreign Relations - Office of the Historian

history.state.gov 3.0 shell
history.state.gov history.state.gov

There are too many foreign actions, purchases, treaties, and little wars for me to want to expend the effort to list.

Again isolationism is not suspending foreign aid to particular nations or regions. It is not reviewing the benefit of existing foreign aid programs.
It’s called going about the business of government.
Can you please give the hyperbolic words a rest.

American isolationist sentiment was at its highest after failed foreign wars that achieved little or cost much. After WW1 and the Middle East wars. So sure sentiment is high now. Big surprise, but again foreign aid review and termination of parts of it are not acts of isolationism
 
Lets keep it real. Trumps a Nationalist, not an Isolationist. He just today said that he wants to see Canada become the 51st state, in a totally serious manner. He is an expansionist, and wants to grow our territorial borders. He doesn't want to cut off ties with our allies, he wants to bully them into accepting his terms and will use whatever blatant misinformation is available to him to do that.

Anyways, here is the definition of :
pa·tri·ot·ism
/ˈpātrēəˌtiz(ə)m/
https://www.google.com/search?sca_e...2ahUKEwi344ftuaiLAxVLG9AFHShmPakQ3eEDegQIFhAM
noun

  1. the quality of being patriotic; devotion to and vigorous support for one's country.




    And now here is the definition from Oxford for what a nationalist is.
    1. a person who strongly identifies with their own nation and vigorously supports its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.
      "he was a staunch nationalist during his 22 years in power"


      • Sounds similar, correct? However I think we can all spot the difference here. We aren't idiots anyways, or are we? Seems pretty stupid to vote for someone whose solution to the problems at hand is throwing our allies under the bus for trade agreements that, mind you, HE championed. Seems almost like this was his plan all along no? Not to form meaningful partnerships with our neighbors but to use it against them whenever he wants. It's blackmail, acting like it isn't is foolish. I'll say my final piece, Trump was and will never be a nationalist. He is a Populist puppet using your well founded(or not so well-founded) fears against you, to enact whatever damn piece of legislation he wants. Even if it hurts his base. Once he has acquired the full chokehold on power he will dismiss his voters like worn trash. You are nothing more than a means to gain wealth and status and he is USING YOU.
      • Go ahead and tell me how he was just joking though, just like he was joking about Greenland, Canada being the 51st state, and using our military to coerce Panama. Oh wait? Those things are real issues now and Trump wasn't just bluffing? Well I guess that means his entire base was completely wrong when they said that and surely wouldn't be afraid to admit it, right?
 
DarkNoon said:
Congress & the American peoples isolationist sentiment hampered Teddy every step on his foreign policy because... you guessed it, they where and the American people where isolationist at the time prior to the great wars.

As I said the president may had higher ambitious ideas but Congress and the American people where not for it and where indeed isolationist by far the majority sentiment at that time.

Spare me the walk around for the squash faced dictator and his ill fought actions currently defiling America and her allies today.
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I don’t even like Trump I’m just explaining why people want to not spend money overseas 😂.
What are you talking about Teddys policies were hampered? Ever heard of the Panama Canal? They also sent the U.S. navy on a world tour to show off our naval power, negotiated relationships in Asia and negotiated with England. Also you say that but what specific ambitions were blocked? I gave you a list of several that went though, if the U.S. was isolationist none of those would have went through. Read opinions from many historical and political science scholars and a large portion recognize that America was never actually isolationist everyone just likes to pretend they were because congress at the time claimed they were. Countries that are isolationist don’t spend millions overseas and negotiate relations with other countries. The reason everyone thinks America was isolationist at the time was because was because they said they didn’t want to get involved in wars, that’s not being isolationist that’s being neutral.
 
Peter Griffin said:
Lets keep it real. Trumps a Nationalist, not an Isolationist. He just today said that he wants to see Canada become the 51st state, in a totally serious manner. He is an expansionist, and wants to grow our territorial borders. He doesn't want to cut off ties with our allies, he wants to bully them into accepting his terms and will use whatever blatant misinformation is available to him to do that.

Anyways, here is the definition of :
pa·tri·ot·ism
/ˈpātrēəˌtiz(ə)m/
Google Search
noun

  1. the quality of being patriotic; devotion to and vigorous support for one's country.




    And now here is the definition from Oxford for what a nationalist is.
    1. a person who strongly identifies with their own nation and vigorously supports its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.
      "he was a staunch nationalist during his 22 years in power"


      • Sounds similar, correct? However I think we can all spot the difference here. We aren't idiots anyways, or are we? Seems pretty stupid to vote for someone whose solution to the problems at hand is throwing our allies under the bus for trade agreements that, mind you, HE championed. Seems almost like this was his plan all along no? Not to form meaningful partnerships with our neighbors but to use it against them whenever he wants. It's blackmail, acting like it isn't is foolish. I'll say my final piece, Trump was and will never be a nationalist. He is a Populist puppet using your well founded(or not so well-founded) fears against you, to enact whatever damn piece of legislation he wants. Even if it hurts his base. Once he has acquired the full chokehold on power he will dismiss his voters like worn trash. You are nothing more than a means to gain wealth and status and he is USING YOU.
      • Go ahead and tell me how he was just joking though, just like he was joking about Greenland, Canada being the 51st state, and using our military to coerce Panama. Oh wait? Those things are real issues now and Trump wasn't just bluffing? Well I guess that means his entire base was completely wrong when they said that and surely wouldn't be afraid to admit it, right?
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You might well correctly argue he’s a nationalist. Let’s just remember that nationalism in and of itself is not a nefarious or negative thing.

Personally I prefer an American nationalist that a corporate globalist politician as president.
One is working for the best will of America the other for a nebulous political and economic aims.
It’s a no brainer for me😏
 
OReid said:
You might well correctly argue he’s a nationalist. Let’s just remember that nationalism in and of itself is not a nefarious or negative thing.

Personally I prefer an American nationalist that a corporate globalist politician as president.
One is working for the best will of America the other for a nebulous political and economic aims.
It’s a no brainer for me😏
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But why that word? Why the sudden shift in the last 10 years? We were fine with using the word Patriot for 200+ years. Why all of the sudden when a movement that espouses that every other country owes you something, it's okay to describe yourself as a nationalist? Because they aren't using it for the good of others, I can tell you that.
 
Peter Griffin said:
But why that word? Why the sudden shift in the last 10 years? We were fine with using the word Patriot for 200+ years. Why all of the sudden when a movement that espouses that every other country owes you something, it's okay to describe yourself as a nationalist? Because they aren't using it for the good of others, I can tell you that.
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Also I would argue that Nationalism while not inherently bad or good as most things are not that simple, is extremely unhealthy for a system such as ours. Nationalism requires a vessel to channel itself. Without it, It loses authenticity. You can't usher in a new 'golden age' without an extremely centralized power, and you certainly cannot do that with 1 term or even two. That's why we see these things such as bills to give Trump the ability to serve a third term, or his efforts to stack the SC. He is consolidating power and using nationalism, not true patriotism, to make these absolutely insane propositions seem in the realms of possibility. And I think this will do nothing but stifle opposition and crackdown on dissent. Nationalism is not healthy patriotism it is a parasite that feeds on the hopes of everyday people.

Timestamp: 52:00
 
Snowfall said:
I mean NAZI literally stood for national socialist German workers party
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Yes but it was fascist. It's own twist you could say or it's owe flavor of socialism.

As you can have Democratic Societies or Republics that employ socialism on any level small or large. Socialism does not in any way equate to always having to be a autocratic military dictatorship like the Nazis to have such ideologies implemented.

I'm pointing out the directors bias twords the left and him trying to POORLY relate subliminally all of the left who support socialist bills or laws with nazis/fascist and what they supposedly all become. Give me a break please. Lol
 
Snowfall said:
I mean NAZI literally stood for national socialist German workers party
Click to expand...
Yeah this is not up for debate. Hitler wasn't a socialist. He was a national socialist. Completely different from the original socialism and is it is a proven FACT that Hitler was on the farthest to the right. If you want to compare the two how about actually providing some clear parallels instead of just saying he was a socialist. He was a totalitarian, and that shit can happen to to any far right or far left extremist group. How the hell do people not know the difference?
 
DarkNoon said:
Yes but it was fascist. It's own twist you could say or it's owe flavor of socialism.

As you can have Democratic Societies or Republics that employ socialism on any level small or large. Socialism does not in any way equate to always having to be a autocratic military dictatorship like the Nazis to have such ideologies implemented.

I'm pointing out the directors bias twords the left and him trying to POORLY relate subliminally all of the left who support socialist bills or laws with nazis/fascist and what they supposedly all become. Give me a break please. Lol
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True he was both a fascist and a socialist.
 
Peter Griffin said:
Yeah this is not up for debate. Hitler wasn't a socialist. He was a national socialist. Completely different from the original socialism and is it is a proven FACT that Hitler was on the farthest to the right. If you want to compare the two how about actually providing some clear parallels instead of just saying he was a socialist. He was a totalitarian, and that shit can happen to to any far right or far left extremist group. How the hell do people not know the difference?
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I’m not arguing he’s not authoritarian he most definitely was. I’m saying he was both socialist and fascist the two aren’t mutually exclusive. Definitely not a left wing socialist though you are 100% correct.
 
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