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What does this even mean
Urban warfare bad - ok
So Representatives believe human life so expendable keeps doing grave danger - don’t equate what Russia is doing to representative democracies
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UA-RU | May 1st-20th | DISCUSSIONS
- Thread starter Obreid
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Urban warfare bad - ok
So Representatives believe human life so expendable keeps doing grave danger - don’t equate what Russia is doing to representative democracies
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- Oct 18, 2017
Representative democracies need to prioritize human life.
That has obviously not been the case for a long time.
But the COVID-19 horror made it unquestionably so. Their focus on power, pride, greed continues to undermine the democratic systems themselves. Over 1,000,000 dead in USA, and for a LONG time we had 2,000-3,000 dying every single day (like February 2022) and it is a shrug to U.S. authorities. I remember 20 years ago when we were rightly horrified when 3,000 were killed on 9/11. We had ceremonies. We sang the nattional anthem. We mourned. We built monuments. Now 1 million dead is a speed bump to national capitalist progress. And as an advocate of the democractic and capitalist systems, I see that is a serious fault line. We believe fighting with one another solves these. It just makes them worse.
In Ukraine, the representative government would rather fight than win. What success is it when over 10% of your nation are now foreign refugees, and today the UN in Ukraine claims 3,381 civilians are killed (surely a fraction of the real horrific deaths which must be at least 20,000 or more). How much land was 20,000+ lives worth? How much land was worth 4 million plus refugees? How much land was worth destruction of city after city? This is not 100 years ago in WWI with soldiers fighting on horsebacks in uniforms in fields and countryside. This is urban warfare destroying city after city of Ukraine making much of country into a giant Aleppo. This is "winning" to Volodymyr Zelenskyy? I would hate to see what he thinks losing looks like.
Who in their right mind would tell its elderly and its women to fill about bottles of gasoline into Molotov cocktails and place their civilians lives in danger? The Ukraine defense leadership. How brave and responsible. Who in their right mind would not do everything possible to get a cease-fire to stop the Russian killing of civilians in urban warfare? The Ukraine leadership. What are these representatives winning for Ukraine? A nation of expats? Cities that are decimated. But Zelenskyy has his pride. He is the hero of the West against the Russian monsters. He is a world celebrity. Tell it to the Ukrainian people without families, orphans, refugees, those without homes anymore, lives or jobs anymore. Isn't it wonderful how Zelenskyy is "defending" the Ukraine (what is left) and he is "showing Russia" who is tough. Really? Not for those people who are just victims now. Oh, but the advocates for democracy can put a hacker message on TV screens in Russia. That's really going to help these innocent, helpless people.
What has his pride cost the Ukrainian nation and the innocent people who could not defend themselves? The white hot fury against the Russians is so blinding, there is little continuing concern for people, normal civilians whose lives have been made a living hell by this horrific war. For what? For some land? Who in their right mind would not have stopped this instantly, and stated wait - we will call a cease-fire and negotiate a settlement. Oh, "the West" might not like that. Because, after all, "the West" is going to bring these families back, their parents back, their children back, their homes back, their lives back, right? But "the West" has its pride too. It has to "defy" the monsters of Russia by any means necessary. But at some point going down that path, you can become just as bad or even worse, because you are supposed to have the balance of morality and conscience.
I remember here, on one discussion, I mentioned God forbid people should be shooting around a nuclear power plant. I was labeled a traitor to the Great Western War Against Monster Russia for this sanity. How I dare I make such suggestions. Lay down my weapons around a nuclear power plant? No, of course not! We should keep shooting around a nuclear power plant and defend Mother Ukraine at any cost. And literally the commenters saw nothing wrong in that. (So what if a nuke plant get blown up, as long as we get the Russians.)
But fighting at any cost is just as unbalanced aa a "foreign policy" at any cost. Such unbalance allowed the dictator Putin to rationalize this horrific invasion. So we should encourage the Ukraine people (and people in other countries) to be unbalanced as Putin. Give little old ladies Molotov cocktails. After all. "He deserves it." But "at any cost" like "by any means necessary" at some point loses touch with humanity.
If we want to defeat the horrors that Russia has inflicted, the idea that we should have the same contempt for human life does not promote our viewpoint. We have to show that we are DIFFERENT. Trying to out-Putin Putin undermines everything that we are supposed to represent. I am sorry a lot of NatSec will not get that. But in the most serious fights, you really can't win them with guns and bombs. You just have to be smarter.
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That's all really easy to say when it isn't your country that is being invaded and people slaughtered.
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- Oct 18, 2017
After the 9/11 deaths, I had to get smarter than the counterterror practices that everyone thought were working and they weren't. I took another path to change people away from violent extremism. And yes our country was invaded. And yes our people were slaughtered. I was there at the pit of NYC. I was there outside the Pentagon watching it burn.
There is always more than one way to solve problems. When we only hear one voice and one idea, we can believe that is all there is. But those who struggle to come up with other ideas can find alternatives.
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- Oct 1, 2016
That means nothing absolutely nothing.
If you don’t attach the specific alternatives suggestions it’s just so much drivel.
You’ve said nothing but everyone in past is wrong and I’m searching a higher road to enlightenment.
I’ve asked repeatedly how should it could the war be negotiated snd settled which you place so much urgency on.
Nothing.
Then you go on about representative democracies and no value of human life.
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- Nov 10, 2017
We dont live in a representative democracy. We never have. Its a constitutional republic. Read Madison(among others) Federalist 10. There was a good bit of concern to guard against strict majoritarianism because most of the forefathers had just come from Europe...... In addition to this I will add that we are no longer a Constitutional Republic and have not been for many years. The US state does what it pretty much wants. The executive wages wars and enforces internal policy by executive decree and its been this way for a while. No one in the legislature has the balls to challenge the "to get along, go along" attitudes in Washington. Thus is the status of our country. for what its worth this is an excellent read
thezman.com
and something --war on the homeland--that Americans dont have any generational memory of. In another world war I venture tht our geographic immunity will disappear because of the type of weapons available today.....
Aside from that..... has any one thought to look for Chinese observers/advisors among the Russian cadre in Ukraine??
Civilizationalism | The Z Blog
thezman.com
Aside from that..... has any one thought to look for Chinese observers/advisors among the Russian cadre in Ukraine??
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- Oct 18, 2017
It is obvious. You stop fighting. Your president goes out, without his tough guy military outfit on, but as a regular civilian and calls for a truce. You ask that no more deaths happen today, and that you will negotiate with Russia to find a solution. You tell your military to stand down. You are the stronger and bigger person.
This is not just about "war maps" and "strategies." We can forget there are actual human beings affected here.
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- Oct 1, 2016
It already has that was the reason for nato to contain the USSR. Now it’s Russia because the character of the national leadership is the same thing.
NATO is providing arms to Ukraine because Russia launched a war of aggression.
Now all we hear is the US is wasting it time in nato the US should worry about defending the US. The US is bad. Blah blah blah
There is a war going on, Its war propaganda,
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- Oct 18, 2017
I think very few people are saying any of that. Most of them, really are not paying attention and could care less. Everyone realizes Russia launched a war of aggression. I certainly have never said "the US is bad."
But a war is not the same as defending lives from the horrific Russian invasion of Ukraine.
The idea that this Russia war in Ukraine should be encouraged to drag on for month after month really is not helping the Ukrainian people... in my opinion, which is why we have "discussions," as that is all it is my opinion. People have the right to different opinions in our country.
And of course, the USA should be concerned about defending the USA, but it hasn't been for at least 20 years.
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- Oct 18, 2017
After a truce is called, Ukraine president needs to call in the United Nations with global blue-helmet peacekeepers to keep the peace and stop the fighting.
Continuing to make this a NATO versus Russia issue is the root of the problem.
The UN has said a lot. It is time for them to recruit global peacekeepers, and do their job for a change.
There need to be a no fly zone and a DMZ established in negotiations managed by the UN between Russia and Ukraine.
The reality in negotiaions is that Ukraine is going to lose the Donbass region.
The reality is Russia needs to pull back its troops.
But the mistaken idea we will succeed with a NATO muscle-based solution is based on what we want, not what Ukraine people need.
The Ukraine people need the fighting to stop. They need the deaths to stop. They need the families and children's lives being ruined to stop. So everything in the Ukraine (which was part of the USSR 30 years ago) won't remain the same in the West. Life must be a priority over land for a real leader.
And the escalationists need to be voted out of power.
We can't keep getting this close to global disaster with power-drunken "leaders."
Europe can plan its regional defense for another day. But the starting point is living to fight another day first.
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- Oct 18, 2017
In Washington DC, we had two carjackings last night. When the criminal thugs held a gun to one woman's boyfriend head and demanded the keys to the car, she didn't stand there and argue over it. She gave the criminals the keys to the car. She didn't let her boyfriend and self get shot. We understand this. This is rational thinking. But somehow when it is Russian tanks in Donbass, we think that maybe the boyfriend's life is somehow expendable. It's not. It's the same problem. Criminals are criminals. They are wrong. But we don't let hostages get slaughtered because we are right and they are wrong. We live and fight another day.
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- Nov 10, 2017
I am not saying the US is bad..... What I am saying is that most people are 1) not students of history 2) have been brainwashed by news outlets and 3) dont do critical thinking well enough to demand better. Period. I am also not anti military...... what I do say is that if you look at the number of campaigns that have ended with a less than desired outcome since WW2 then think you can tell me the US has been well led? Who's fault is that??
Aside from that- Ukraine isnt a good guy vs bad guy dance. Both sides are culpable. NATO reneged on the 1991 Belgrade agreement
Has NATO reneged on a 1991 agreement with Russia
According to an article in Der Spiegel, a newly discover documented dated March 1991 shows that discussions between the West and Russia made it clear that NATO would not expand past East Germany an…
euroweeklynews.com
Point is there is way too much cheer leading around and almost no critical thinking about whats happening. Far as your comment about the USA not having been concerned with defending the USA for 20 years I completely agree with you. You remember what I told you in a PM about reasons I would consider coming back there..... that still stands.
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I'm 66
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Then Ukraine needs to rebuild their nuclear weapons program.
Your premise
Russia invaded
Ukrainians died - bad fighting has to stop.
If Ukraine is not strong enough to repel Russia on its own and it is foolish or unwise for nato to help them. The UN certainly isn’t going to.
The cops aren’t coming so they lose the car. Next time the boyfriend and girl are both packing and they shoot the turd if they get the opportunity.
But that wont ever happen because people can’t possibly defend and fight for themselves just as nations shouldn’t either.
The police in DC won’t or can’t do anything about it. So meanwhile the world is left with turds like Putin and carjackers to do what ever they want.
You made your case fairly well. I don’t agree with it because while it reflects the best in the human nature. It makes no provision for the worst in human nature.
I’m sorry sometimes you do just have to fight. There is to little peace love and equanimity in this life to assume this will work.
I we will disagree, I’ll leave your discussion post to stand or fall on their own merits and reply no more.
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- Nov 21, 2020
Not really the market has been straight ass.
With all the money pumped in the contractors the past few months you'd expect the shares to go up or something.
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- Feb 21, 2022
Wow that is naive. So someone kicks in your door and starts beating on you and your answer is to stop fighting back and negotiate with your attacker....because that makes you a better person? Wow.
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- Oct 18, 2017
Ugh. Charley you got me by 3 years. God Bless and I bow to your seniority.
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- Oct 18, 2017
No, when it is a person holding your family hostage with lethal weaponery, it makes you a person who lives to see another day, and someone who protects the lives of your family first. It doesn't "make you a better person." No one wants or likes to negotiate with criminal hostage takers. But it is necessary for survival.
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- Oct 18, 2017
They survive to be better prepared on how to handle a "next time."
Of course, sometimes you have to fight. But when you can, you make it your choice, not your reaction.
And a responsible defense strategy protects civiliians - because if protecting civilians is not your priority what exactly are you "defending?" Buildings? Dirt? My understanding of defense would prioritize human life every time over buildings and dirt. And now today, new horrors in Odessa.
Rather Ukraine be the Syria of Europe, instead of an Armistice with the criminal regime in Russia?
Context: 11 years later the disaster for Syria and Syrian refugees are still wandering the Earth.
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- Mar 3, 2021
" You stop fighting. Your president goes out, without his tough guy military outfit on, but as a regular civilian and calls for a truce. You ask that no more deaths happen today, and that you will negotiate with Russia to find a solution. You tell your military to stand down." If he did this he would be arrested and most likely shot immediately. IMO
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