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UA-RU-NATO | DISCUSSIONS

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Spyglass said:
Tell me why this wouldn’t work?
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It would only push the fight down the line. It will raise the stakes of nuclear war greater than they are now. The longer this fight drags on the greater the risk. Your way does not really end the war nor will end any of the tensions. So long as Russia has Ukrainian territory it will never be over. Russia needs to be entirely expelled, keep circling back to only way dictators learn is on the battlefield.
 
Totality said:
It would only push the fight down the line. It will raise the stakes of nuclear war greater than they are now. The longer this fight drags on the greater the risk. Your way does not end the war nor will end any of the tensions. So long as Russia has Ukrainian territory it will never be over.
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What fight? In that scenario the fight is over. There would be no major risk of nuclear conflict because no shots are being fired. It would be peace.

By the time the issue is revisited, the geopolitical landscape may be different enough to garner a peaceful permanent solution.

Right now you have Mike Tyson and Mohammed Ali going round after round in the ring, getting bloody, and no one wants to give up. At some point the boxing match becomes senseless, and a truce must be declared.
 
Spyglass said:
In that scenario the fight is over.
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No. Not in the minds. The tensions will still be there. Your only kicking the inevitable proverbial can down the road. Raises the stakes even greater and doesn't solve the core issue or cause of the conflict in the first place.

It will never be over until Ukraine has all of its territory back and Russia is entirely expelled. Only than can a true peace be settled.
 
Spyglass said:
East Ukraine, West Ukraine. Elective repatriation of ethnic Russians to east Ukraine. West Ukraine becomes NATO. Zelensky is President of NATO side, and Putin is President of Russian side.

Tell me why this wouldn’t work?
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I can't, I don't know if it would or wouldn't.

I do know that it didn't work in Germany. Partitioning countries is something my current home country has a lot of experience with, e.g. in Cyprus, Israel/Palestine, India, the list is really pretty long...

And judging from my limited contact with my now much smaller extended family back in my actual home country, whether it would work or not hardly matters. They want their country back, not have it divided even further.
 
Totality said:
No. Not in the minds. The tensions will still be there. Your only kicking the inevitable down the line. Raises the stakes even greater. It will never be over until Ukraine has all of its territory back and Russia is entirely expelled. Only than can a true peace be settled.
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You might be projecting a bit here.

You make a point about the minds. However we don’t see how the geopolitical landscape will evolve in 20-30 years. The United States may no longer have the influence it once did. Hell, the US may no longer exist with the rate it’s going. Major shifts in the global geopolitical climate can present solutions otherwise not possible nor seen before.

It’s a dice roll. At least it will stop the dying.
 
Spyglass said:
Sorry I didn’t mean to cause a ruckus, I just enjoy debating this topic. I’m well aware my viewpoint is unpopular. Much love.
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No need to apologize, as a staff member sometimes I have to specify when my analysis is personal or official DWS stance/belief.

But I throughly enjoyed our conversation. Thanks! It was fun! :D
 
Totality said:
Oh so are my'n. I'm a extreme US patriot who is a leftist, pretty much says it all. Haha

Trust me got plenty of "fans". (Haters) Though I suspect a lot of times it is how I come off. 🤔 😂 Anyways I've derailed topic enough. Good talk, goodnight. 🤝
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I bleed red white and blue too, my guy. That’s what makes America beautiful. Diversity of opinions, and the first amendment to allow discussion.

I think you and I want the same thing it’s just we have radically different opinions on how to get there. I enjoyed the debate though. :)
 
Spyglass said:
You might be projecting a bit here.

You make a point about the minds. However we don’t see how the geopolitical landscape will evolve in 20-30 years. The United States may no longer have the influence it once did. Hell, the US may no longer exist with the rate it’s going. Major shifts in the global geopolitical climate can present solutions otherwise not possible nor seen before.

It’s a dice roll. At least it will stop the dying.
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Do you think Ukrainians will need US influence to remember their children being raped, tortured and killed by Russians occupying their lands?
Rewind to 15 months ago. Was it was probable that Ukrainians would take it on the chin? Yes.
Now? No way in hell.
 
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Spyglass said:
East Ukraine, West Ukraine. Elective repatriation of ethnic Russians to east Ukraine. West Ukraine becomes NATO. Zelensky is President of NATO side, and Putin is President of Russian side.

Tell me why this wouldn’t work?
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With Ukraine entering nato it might work.
But exactly what is Russia opinion of this. Are they willing to settle on these terms or any term even remotely close to them.
The last I’ve read it is all or nothing for russia.
When they made their push to take Kiev they clearly demonstrated that.
It was never about protecting ethnic Russians. It was about taking all of Ukraine.

Have your heard or read anything out of Russia stating they would be agreeable to eastern Ukraine and end of conflict with Ukraine entering nato.
I might have missed it but as far as I have read all of Ukraine is still their negotiating position.

The only thing I’ve seen solid is from Dec 22. They want eastern Ukraine ( which they currently have as well S Donbas. And they want Ukraine demilitarized (defiantly not in nato) and what appears to be Russia still being the gaurdian of Ukrainian security.

You know this isn’t going to fly.

The outcome of Xi and Zelinski phone call was reportedly productive and Zelinski was open to China helping with negotiations. It was also positively received well by the US. If China could help reach a acceptable settlement.

But honestly withdrawing US support will only encourage Russia to resume their efforts to move west again. As far as I can see they’ve made no concessions since March of last year.
They want Crimea and eastern Ukraine and still to be the security guarantor of a demilitarized Ukraine.
So until Russia begins to indicate their willing to make concessions negotiations are at a standstill.
China is trying Ukraine has said their willing to talk and Russias mute
 
Spyglass said:
Sorry I didn’t mean to cause a ruckus, I just enjoy debating this topic. I’m well aware my viewpoint is unpopular. Much love.
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No you were civil and debate is good. Obviously I enjoy it as well.
Talking points are worthless.
negotiations are necessary but all sides must be willing to do so in good faith.

I just strongly believe negotiations should be from a position of strength. That’s why I continue to support continued aid to Ukraine. I’ve acknowledged a negotiated settlement will be necessary in the end. We just haven’t arrived their yet.
 
Spyglass said:
East Ukraine, West Ukraine. Elective repatriation of ethnic Russians to east Ukraine. West Ukraine becomes NATO. Zelensky is President of NATO side, and Putin is President of Russian side.

Tell me why this wouldn’t work?
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Because that would reward the aggressor and give Russia incentive to do it again.
 
Loadstain said:
You don't just jump into an F-16 and become proficient pilot.

https://military-wiki.com/how-long-does-it-take-for-a-ukrainian-pilot-to-master-the-f-16/

it takes about 2 years for a trainee pilot to learn to fly an F-16.


www.thedrive.com

This Is How Long It Would Really Take Ukraine's Pilots To Convert To F-16s

Just learning to fly an F-16 is a small aspect of what it would take for a Ukrainian fighter pilot to be combat ready in the type.
www.thedrive.com www.thedrive.com

the full F-16 Basic Course, also known as the B-Course, is typically a nine-month process for pilots fresh out of pilot training.
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Yes, but they are taking pilots who are already trained in other forms of aircraft and have flight/combat experience.
 
RiffRaff said:
Yes, but they are taking pilots who are already trained in other forms of aircraft and have flight/combat experience.
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You are right.
•A barebones emergency launch would be “…the crew chief will start it, she winds up slow so lead with power. Try not to die.”
• good enough transition “to avoid near catastrophic losses” would be:
2 weeks ground school (systems and emergency
procedures)
4 weeks with an IP (Instructor Pilot) maybe 5-6 hops a week
1 week just burning holes cross country
1 week check rides. Basic VFR, IFR. ACM, Tactics
and Bobs your Uncle.
6-8 weeks

This timetable presupposes, fully trained combat pilots, flyable weather, and highly motivated crew Members cc working day and night to learn systems and emergency procedures.
 
RiffRaff said:
Exactly. Russia invaded another sovereign country with clearly defined borders. This cannot be allowed to stand.
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Yup. As I said earlier. Anything less than Ukraine taking back every inch of territory... your just pushing the can down the road and not really solving the problem. But will only make things more risky down the road.

We need to give Ukraine everything it needs and more to quickly end this and stop dragging it out as the longer this conflict takes the greater the risk of a nuclear event or a wider war consumes Europe.
 
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