UA-RU-NATO War & Ukraine Peace Talks | Discussions

[NuclearID]

Putin would only attack NATO if it were undermined, looked weak, or lacked unity which is exactly what Trump is doing to NATO by weakening alliances and casting doubt on U.S. commitments. Undermining NATO doesn't prevent war, it invites it.

The only reason Putin would test NATO is if he believed the alliance was too weak or divided to respond. And what’s causing that division? Trump’s actions in ostracizing allies, threatening to withdraw from NATO, and signaling that the U.S. might not uphold its commitments. That emboldens Putin, not deters him.

The US may not defend Nato allies who do not meet Trump spending targets as part of a major shake-up of the alliance.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1897744049248870901

 

[Bravo]

Entschuldigung das ich jetzt deutsch schreibe, aber die Ereignisse der letzten Tage haben einige Spuren hinterlassen und ich möchte meine Gedanken etwas sortieren.

Wie ihr wisst, bin ich Deutsch. Also direkt und indirekt von den politischen Ereignissen betroffen.

Zählen wir zuerst mal auf, was die Europäischen Staaten in den letzten Jahren waren.
Trotz eindeutiger Warnungen vor bereits über zehn Jahren wurden die Themen Sicherheit und Rüstung vernachlässigt.
Trotz eindeutiger Warnungen wurden Millionen Migranten in die EU (vor allem nach Deutschland) aufgenommen. Keiner hat diese Leute überprüft.
Trotz eindeutiger Warnungen hat man sich gerade auf deutscher und französischer Seite wirtschaftlich von Russland abhängig gemacht.
Geheimdienst, Militär und Polizei wurden vernachlässigt. Anschläge in Deutschland wurden oft mit Hilfe verbündeter Dienste wie der CIA und dem Mossad bzw den MI6 verhindert, weil der Innengeheimdienst politisch eingesetzt wurde und wird.
Die Gesellschaft wird durch Links- und Rechtsextremisten radikalisiert, dazwischen Berufskriminelle und radikale Moslems (meist Migranten aus arabischen Ländern).

Als ich vor zehn Jahren in Deutschland davor warnen wollte das Putin die Ukraine offen angreifen würde, war das beste was ich zu hören bekam das ich Pro Putin wäre (war ich nie).
Verschiedenen anderen Personen (auch in der Politik) wurde in Bezug auf Terrorismus und Kriminalität durch Zuwanderung und Linksradikale kein Glauben geschenkt, teilweise wurden die Leute als Rechtsextreme hingestellt und verleumdet. Tja, die Realität kickt im Moment...

Das sind typische Beispiele für typische deutsche/ europäische Aktionen.

Jetzt zur Ukraine: nahezu die gesamte Struktur der geheimdienstlichen Arbeit und ein großer Teil der Waffen und Unterstützung wird derzeit durch die Amerikaner gestellt. Der deutsche Geheimdienst leistet gerade einen Beitrag von etwa 1%, während aber die Zeit die erkauft wurde, kaum genutzt wurde. Man hat sich auf die Amerikaner verlassen und gehofft, das man einfach so wieder rauskommt.

Für mich sind die Aussagen von Vance durchaus verständlich, als Verbündeter würde ich mir komisch vorkommen in der Situation. Auch die Aktionen Trumps sind nachvollziehbar, wenn man das vorher geschriebene berücksichtigt.

Ich möchte ausdrücklich betonen, das ich diese Aktionen nach meinem derzeitigen Wissensstand NICHT gut finde, ABER ich kann sie nachvollziehen.

Wenn die die Deutschen daraus etwas lernen, dann umso besser. Ich sehe das genauso, wie andere User: ein starkes Europa und ein starkes Deutschland ist auch im Interesse der US Regierung. Dafür braucht es aber Kompetenz, Mut und Entschlossenes Handeln. Bleibt zu hoffen, das es funktioniert.

Sorry for posting this in German, wasn't meant to be offensive. But i had to explain my thoughts.

 

[Snowfall]

The US may not defend Nato allies who do not meet Trump spending targets as part of a major shake-up of the alliance.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1897744049248870901

There’s a reason all the NATO border states have all reached that level. Poland 4.1% Estonia 3.4% Latvia 3.1% Lithuania 2.8% Finland 2.4% Norway 2.2% Sweden 2.1%. The only countries that don’t meet the spending threshold aren’t even at risk of being invaded.

 

[NuclearID]

There’s a reason all the NATO border states have all reached that level. Poland 4.1% Estonia 3.4% Latvia 3.1% Lithuania 2.8% Finland 2.4% Norway 2.2% Sweden 2.1%. The only countries that don’t meet the spending threshold aren’t even at risk of being invaded.

Shameful. Destroying important strategic alliances. There are other ways to address funding issues without acting like a 12-year-old child throwing a fit and burning bridges like ignorant, malevolent children such as bridges that are unlikely ever to be mended, even after Trump.

America needs to be saved from this Russian appeasement nonsense before Trump hands over everything every Russian leader has ever wanted and destroys the cornerstone of national security that we have spent over 80 years building and he is undoing it all in just months. Trump is as un-American as it gets.

 

[NuclearID]

destroys the cornerstone of national security that we have spent over 80 years building and he is undoing it all in just months. Trump is as un-American as it gets.

He may not fit the legal definition of a traitor since we are not at war with Russia, but he's damn near it if not outright a foreign agent or engaged in espionage by legal definitions.

Can't wait until he loses Congress in the midterms and his puppet ass is impeached, dragged, and hauled out of the White House before he does any more irreversible damage.

 

[Deleted account]

When reasoning and discussion are gone and all that is left is prognostications of doom tyranny and betrayal.
Then you might want to ask who exactly is caught up in cult like thinking.

At the end of The Boy who Cried Wolf the wolf really does come.

 

[Snowfall]

Shameful. Destroying important strategic alliances. There are other ways to address funding issues without acting like a 12-year-old child throwing a fit and burning bridges like ignorant, malevolent children such as bridges that are unlikely ever to be mended, even after Trump.

America needs to be saved from this Russian appeasement nonsense before Trump hands over everything every Russian leader has ever wanted and destroys the cornerstone of national security that we have spent over 80 years building and he is undoing it all in just months. Trump is as un-American as it gets.

not trying to start an argument just legitimately curious what you think would be a better way to solve the budget issue that they haven’t addressed for 40 years.

 

[Deleted account]

not trying to start an argument just legitimately curious what you think would be a better way to solve the budget issue that they haven’t addressed for 40 years.

Elon Musk could literally pay out of pocket for everything the US has shipped to Ukraine since the start of the war twice over, and still remain a very rich man.

Think about it.

 

[Publius]

The US may not defend Nato allies who do not meet Trump spending targets as part of a major shake-up of the alliance.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1897744049248870901

This statement is true.

Now I would point to a 2014 renewed pledge by nato countries to meet the 2% guideline made in reaction to Russia invading Ukraine and seizing Crimea.

The 2% defence investment guideline

In 2014, NATO Heads of State and Government agreed to commit 2% of their national Gross Domestic Product (GDP) to defence spending, to help ensure the Alliance's continued military readiness. This decision was taken in response to Russia’s illegal annexation of Crimea, and amid broader instability in the Middle East. The 2014 Defence Investment Pledge built on an earlier commitment to meeting this 2% of GDP guideline, agreed in 2006 by NATO Defence Ministers.

It’s 2024 and this is a map of nations in nato that have and have not met such spending.

Map shows which Nato countries fail to reach 2% minimum spending budget

Statistics have shown the only countries managing to hit their defence spending minimum are primarily along the Russia-Ukraine border.

metro.co.uk

So if I were to compare campaign rhetoric to actual national commitments to meet their goals.
Whom would I more likely question as being the unwilling parties to respond to a potential article 5 incident.

Seriously if many of these European capitals were concerned enough recommit to spending goals in 2014 after Russia seized Crimea. Why is it now a decade after Russia threatening Europe and three years of war they are incensed that Trump questioned their commitment to European security?
Honest question!
Money talks, bullshit walks.


Oh and thats a British news source not a MAGA influencer.

 

[Publius]

At the end of The Boy who Cried Wolf the wolf really does come.

Yeah it’s true and you will note I’m the one who’s been suggesting troops needed to be in there last year.

I’ll also point out the reason the boy was ignored was because he kept lying and crying wolf. And when it happened his credibly was totally used up.

 

[Deleted account]

This statement is true.

Now I would point to a 2014 renewed pledge by nato countries to meet the 2% guideline made in reaction to Russia invading Ukraine and seizing Crimea.

Seriously if many of these European capitals were concerned enough recommit to spending goals in 2014 after Russia seized Crimea. Why is it now a decade after Russia threatening Europe and three years of war they are incensed that Trump questioned their commitment to European security?
Honest question!
Money talks, bullshit walks.

Oh and thats a British news source not a MAGA influencer.

This is absolutely true, and European societies screwed up big time, which is why we find ourselves in the present debacle.

However, merely arming Europe is, unfortunately, not enough to secure peace on the continent (assuming you're interested in that). Historically, the problem with a Europe where everyone is armed to the teeth is that European countries then tend to go to war against one another. You'll still need the US to play the role of scoutmaster.

 

[Snowfall]

enough to secure peace on the continent (assuming you're interested in that). Historically, the problem with a Europe where everyone is armed to the teeth is that European countries then tend to go to war against one another.

I mean not really a fair comparison to the modern EU though. Prior to the EU and NATO I would’ve agreed with you but they’re pretty much all aligned now. Excluding the obvious one that doesn’t play nice

 

[Deleted account]

I mean not really a fair comparison to the modern EU though. Prior to the EU and NATO I would’ve agreed with you but they’re pretty much all aligned now. Excluding the obvious one that doesn’t play nice

I'm of the opinion that the 80-year period of peace in Europe was only enabled by the watchful eye of Uncle Sam. Recall the saying - "NATO was created to keep the Russians out and the Germans down."

 

[Publius]

This is absolutely true, and European societies screwed up big time, which is why we find ourselves in the present debacle.

However, merely arming Europe is, unfortunately, not enough to secure peace on the continent (assuming you're interested in that). Historically, the problem with a Europe where everyone is armed to the teeth is that European countries then tend to go to war against one another. You'll still need the US to play the role of scoutmaster.

Didn’t ever say that I’ve actually pointed out that the unspoken reason for nato was to keep the European powers from going to war with each other.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with them meeting or not meeting their commitments after a decade of Russian aggression. Especially as it pertains to the indignation that the current US President might actually expect them to shit or get out of the bathroom.

who’s first by the way, which nation in Europe have troops on the way to Poland for staging to enter Ukraine.

All I am saying it’s too late to be indignant the war is dragging on. And the people elected a person to look for resolutions. the American population have and continue to speak pretty solidly here.

What’s the plan and if not what have you all been doing to formulate a winning strategy.
Keep spending and keep dying is not a strategic unified war plan.
And being upset Trumps pointed that out is not his fault it’s the fault of those who ran the show till Jan 21.
Or was there a major Ukrainian victory just over the horizon that’s been spoiled.
If so what was it.

 

[Snowfall]

I'm of the opinion that the 80-year period of peace in Europe was only enabled by the watchful eye of Uncle Sam. Recall the saying - "NATO was created to keep the Russians out and the Germans down."

I guess we’re going to have to agree to disagree on that one

 

[Deleted account]

Or was there a major Ukrainian victory just over the horizon that’s been spoiled.
If so what was it.

Some problems cannot be solved, they can only be managed. And sometimes that is enough. Look at NK/SK.

The US spent something like 100 billion USD to keep Ukraine in the fight over the past three years - and most of this money remained stateside in the form of payments to US arms manufacturers. That's chump change compared to the US defense budget, and even more so compared to your total budget. For that price you also managed to cause something like 600 thousand Russian casualties without incurring a single one of your own.

This is fantastically good business. Unless, of course, you believe Russia to be your friend rather than your enemy (which it is, and will remain regardless of how much time Trump spends licking Putin's boot).

 

[NuclearID]

not trying to start an argument just legitimately curious what you think would be a better way to solve the budget issue that they haven’t addressed for 40 years.

My post was mostly directed at Trump and GOP officials who are throwing the fits like children over funding.

 

[Deleted account]

My post was mostly directed at Trump and GOP officials who are throwing the fits like children over funding.

This was never about money. Money is just being used as an excuse. What this is about is a harebrained idea cooked up by some MAGA geniuses that Russia can somehow be appeased into breaking its quasi-alliance with China, and instead ally with the US.

That's, of course, idiotic, and will never happen for a great many reasons - chief of them being "who in their right mind would drop their rosy relationship with the solid, predictable, rational government in Beijing in order to ally with the dumpster fire that's Trump's America"?

Still, I'm sure Putin will be more than pleased to pocket the windfall.

 

[Publius]

Some problems cannot be solved, they can only be managed. And sometimes that is enough. Look at NK/SK.

The US spent something like 100 billion USD to keep Ukraine in the fight over the past three years - and most of this money remained stateside in the form of payments to US arms manufacturers. That's chump change compared to the US defense budget, and even more so compared to your total budget. For that price you also managed to cause something like 600 thousand Russian casualties without incurring a single one of your own.

This is fantastically good business. Unless, of course, you believe Russia to be your friend rather than your enemy (which it is, and will remain regardless of how much time Trump spends licking Putin's boot).

There’s that emotional argument of boot licking. And again which European capital is going to send troops to Ukraine.
I believe Poland wanted to a year or two ago and nato told them no.

So again aside from emotional bootlicking comments. What should nato do to engage this war so that Ukraine wins?
I even take the improbable vs the attainable steps.

 

[Deleted account]

There’s that emotional argument of boot licking.

This is what it looks like to everyone outside the US, and to most of the US as well.

So again aside from emotional bootlicking comments. What should nato do to engage this war so that Ukraine wins?
I even take the improbable vs the attainable steps.

Bleed the suckers dry! Keep pumping Ukraine with weapons. Make the Russians pay through the nose - in blood and treasure - for every meaningless village they manage to capture. Keep calm and carry on until at last they are ready for real peace talks rather than this clown act Putin is putting up for Trump's benefit.

It was working, too. The Russian economy is in a tailspin, inflation is out of control, there's a severe workforce shortage (because everyone headed off to war), defense spending is gobbling up the Russian budget, etc. They could not keep this up for a whole lot longer.

But alas, the American public got bored of this little reality TV series and decided not to renew for Season 4. That's your big problem (again, collective "you"): no one thinks long-term anymore; everyone is just looking for their next dose of endorphins. So here we are.