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UA-RU-NATO War & Ukraine Peace Talks | Discussions

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After a series of Russian strikes tonight targeting Ukrainian infrastructure, Russian channels report that Ukrainian attack drones successfully hit a Russian Rosneft fuel depot in Krasnodar.The Russian fuel depot is burning.

Sounds like that energy infrastructure ceasefire isn’t going so well
 
Trump threatened Russia months ago saying if they didn't agree to peace, he would give Ukraine everything it needed to win the war. Let's see if he follows through.
I think it’s gonna take Putin doing something to make Trump look like a fool before we see him follow through. Right now Putin is baiting him with this energy ceasefire but he only has so many moves that can be constituted as an effort to make peace.
 
If Putin refuses to budge on any necessary security guarantees that Ukraine needs. Then the rubber will meet the road. And Trump and the other European leaders will need to definitely put up or shut up.
Well, Trump was supposed to sell the 30-day ceasefire to Putin yesterday - and it appears Putin politely told him to have intercourse with himself. Today he's on Fox bragging about how he has "good relations" with Russia and how Putin called him "his friend". No word of the "massive sanctions" that were supposed to happen if Russia refused.

So I guess "shut up" it is. 💁‍♂️
I’m not arguing to capitulate to Putin, only for the effort to try and negotiate an end to the war.
There is a point where the "peace at all costs" approach becomes tantamount to capitulation.
 
On a side note - in terms of global influence and perception of American power, the United States is currently the weakest it has been since before World War 1.

And the trend continues.
 
On a side note - in terms of global influence and perception of American power, the United States is currently the weakest it has been since before World War 1.

And the trend continues.
Until the United States no longer has a nuclear arsenal, there’s no misconception about American power. It’s only up for debate where they’re willing to use it.
 
Until the United States no longer has a nuclear arsenal, there’s no misconception about American power. It’s only up for debate where they’re willing to use it.
Absolutely. However, nuclear deterrence is full of paradoxes and catch-22s. If governments arrive at the conclusion that the US is unwilling to use its nuclear arsenal outside of deterring a full-scale attack on the US itself, they will be incentivized to act as though said arsenal did not exist.

It is ironic that while the wording of the official US nuclear doctrine is more aggressive than its Russian counterpart (for example, the US reserves the right to use its nuclear arsenal in defense of its allies - whereas Russia does not, only making an exception for Belarus), actual US nuclear deterrence is, unfortunately, substantially eroded.

Of course - that's just another foreign policy ball that your current president has fumbled with his repeated public statements on how scared he is of nuclear war. Biden, at least, was smart enough to avoid making any public statements regarding nuclear use (except for that one time right after the outbreak of the Ukraine war where he said the US was prepared to defend its allies "with all means at its disposal"). And as for Putin, he's also doing the correct thing by deflecting questions with "read our doctrine".
 
Hypothetical scenario: if Putin ordered a surprise nuclear strike vs. the USA, and then proceeded to immediately call Trump (while the missiles were enroute) claiming that no such thing is happening - would Trump trust him over the word of the US military and not order a retaliatory strike? :unsure:

If it comes to my mind, I bet it they're also thinking that at the Kremlin.
 
Only a few siloed missiles (relatively) could be destroyed on the ground in that scenario. Bombers both with rocks and arrows would be in the air and submarines, which have been untouchable as of now, (though it’s possible they get a lucky for them break or two?)

Still it’s a good question and it’s a viable tactic could weed out a few of the thousands of incoming American ICBMs but not the air and ground and sea launched cruise along with the hand-delivered devices (bombers dropping bombs)

I think it would be time better spent time by Vladimir Putin to be digging in deeper and filling in sandbags, because there’s a world of shit coming his way.
 
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There it is. Karoline Leavitt blaming Ukraine and Russia EQUALLY... In the ongoing press briefing. Peace through strength, give me a break.
 
Hypothetical scenario: if Putin ordered a surprise nuclear strike vs. the USA, and then proceeded to immediately call Trump (while the missiles were enroute) claiming that no such thing is happening - would Trump trust him over the word of the US military and not order a retaliatory strike? :unsure:

If it comes to my mind, I bet it they're also thinking that at the Kremlin.
That's a ridiculous scenario. To think that any President would trust an adversarial leader over what his own satellites are telling him is something for the movies, not reality.
 
That's a ridiculous scenario. To think that any President would trust an adversarial leader over what his own satellites are telling him is something for the movies, not reality.
Trump himself said on live TV (his first term) he trusts Putin more then his own (US) intelligence apparatus communities/agencies to which had all kinds of data including satellite and still Trump to ignore them and trust Putin instead.

Think your argument is rather incorrect... given Trump's previous statements. Would you like me to grab the video of him saying this?
 
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Well, Trump was supposed to sell the 30-day ceasefire to Putin yesterday - and it appears Putin politely told him to have intercourse with himself. Today he's on Fox bragging about how he has "good relations" with Russia and how Putin called him "his friend". No word of the "massive sanctions" that were supposed to happen if Russia refused.

So I guess "shut up" it is. 💁‍♂️

There is a point where the "peace at all costs" approach becomes tantamount to capitulation.
Well of course there is and I know some like to claim we’re well past that with the new administration. We’re not there yet, approaching yes.
So we will see.

There is also the converse argument to be made. Victory at all cost. What cost and lengths do you suppose nato capitals and the US are prepared to go to?

And what is the potential result of that.
Do you support spinning this up to the brink of Nuclear confrontation?
If we do it will be very likely be the single most consequential standoff between nuclear powers ever.
I argued there was a time to do this earlier when it would have been less riskier, at least as I see it. We can still do this but the risk are higher now I also believe.

I’m game to march us right up to that line, are you? Time for political criticism and blame shifting is over. This is perhaps the single most consequential risk to thermo nuclear war we have faced since the Cuban missile crisis if we continue with course of victory at all cost. Are you willing to march us up to that line?

Of course will western leadership respond that way? Past performance of them all is they will not.

Your question might be better framed as.

At what cost peace or open war between four possibly more nuclear powers and which leader will be balking then.

Trump still might be on that list, but it will be a long list of Europeans leaders as well. Putin might be on that list as welI don’t know. My concern at this stage in this political calculus is Putin has more to lose “personally” than western leaders do and he might be the frog that jumps.
 
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Trump suggests to Zelensky that the US should take ownership of Ukrainian power plants for security​



KYIV, Ukraine (AP) — President Donald Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said Wednesday that they had a constructive call about moving toward a ceasefire between Kyiv and Moscow, with the White House suggesting that the U.S. take control of Ukrainian power plants to ensure their security.

Trump told Zelenskyy that the U.S could be “very helpful in running those plants with its electricity and utility expertise,” according to a White House statement from Secretary of State Marco Rubio and national security adviser Mike Waltz that described the call as “fantastic.”

Trump added that “American ownership of those plants could be the best protection for that infrastructure.”

Article is behind a paywall; I can only get this.
 
Trump himself said on live TV (his first term) he trusts Putin more then his own (US) intelligence apparatus communities/agencies to which had all kinds of data including satellite and still Trump to ignore them and trust Putin instead.
Yes, this is precisely what I had in mind when writing my post. Again, the power to remember things comes in handy.
 
There it is. Karoline Leavitt blaming Ukraine and Russia EQUALLY... In the ongoing press briefing. Peace through strength, give me a break.
Oh, she's a piece of work, that one. Not quite MTG levels of insane, but close. Very entertaining to watch (in the same sense as watching a car crash is entertaining). I bet the boss approves. 😁
 
Some of the personal political commentary is starting to cross the line. Let's stay focused, please. A good if thumb to go by is that if it's derogatory in any way, it doesn't belong here. It is possible to make your point and keep it analytical.
 
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