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UA-RU-NATO War & Ukraine Peace Talks | Discussions

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DEFCON Warning System said:
I haven't heard any security guarantees being offered to Ukraine. Can someone quote me some?
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There isn’t any yet, I would point out we haven’t entered the actual process of negotiations.
What effect would public declarations of European troop deployed to Ukraine have.
There would be no negotiations to start with,
US efforts to promise economic development and ties and investment in Ukraine as well as Russia.
Is I believe the candy to sweeten the incentive for both sides to actually come to the table.
It’s a process. As I’ve said I don’t know if it will even work.

The actual security guarantees would necessarily need to be hammered out later, or there will be negotiations.
Zelensky is pissed because none are given on the front end, and does not accept the principle Russia will never negotiate if that is the opening stipulation.

Even if we send nato troops in now and drive Russia out consequently alienate Russia for another 100yrs. Then we drive Russia to rely and ally with China which only makes our work harder in Asia.

It all goes back to the example of what happened in Iran in the 80’s. Would we have been better off dealing with and supporting the Shah, rather than dealing with the ayatollah’s for the last 45 years.

I’d rather face the future with a placated Putin who has economic ties with the west and not allied and dependent on China.
But it’s just a hope and a prayer.
 
Here is the problem with the exchange between Trump and Zelensky. Go back and listen to the exchange. Listen very carefully to what Trump says during it, when emotions are raw, when the diplomatic gloves come off.

That is how Trump actually feels. That is what he really thinks.

And it is dangerous because Trump is willing to take a short-term goal of avoiding further conflict in Ukraine at the sacrifice of what could be a bigger war or wars later as both Russia and China take advantage of it.

Trump is (rightfully) frightened of WWIII. And Russia now knows it.
 
DEFCON Warning System said:
And it is dangerous because Trump is willing to take a short-term goal of avoiding further conflict in Ukraine at the sacrifice of what could be a bigger war or wars later as both Russia and China take advantage of it.

Trump is (rightfully) frightened of WWIII. And Russia now knows it.
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Not really a change from the previous administration and Europe though. Russia already knows the west is afraid of WW3 and so are they hence why they’ve avoided striking Ukranian aid hubs in Poland. The difference is the west says it out loud the Russians do it covertly which is why the west calls their bluff on aid so often.
 
DarkNoon said:
Canadian PM: I am working with Zelensky, Starmer and European leaders in London to achieve a just and lasting peace in #Ukraine.
https://twitter.com/x/status/1896172392856301911
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He’s working to achieve a just and lasting peace.
Well what exactly is he or European leaders proposing? Specifically not platitudes. Sick of Slava Ukraine emojis and tagging Ukrainian flags on headers THAT COST NOTHING!
They don’t have a clue or the cajones to work for just outcome for Ukraine.
Shit or get off the pot.
Either support a negotiated settlement or start sending troops and equipment to Poland today.
 
william said:
I wonder if those people would be out there protesting like that if their sons and daughters were getting blown apart on the ground in Ukraine.
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If they were Ukrainians, absolutely. If Minsk version 2 happens their sons, daughters and families have died for nothing and their country can forget any independence and at best become a Belarus style republic with their own culture, or at worst fully annexed with their culture eradicated. How hard is it to not get that a pause in a fight for survival with no guarantees will lead to total loss of independence in the future?
 
Cilvilt_beredskap said:
If they were Ukrainians, absolutely. If Minsk version 2 happens their sons, daughters and families have died for nothing and their country can forget any independence and at best become a Belarus style republic with their own culture, or at worst fully annexed with their culture eradicated. How hard is it to not get that a pause in a fight for survival with no guarantees will lead to total loss of independence in the future?
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All well and good and also true. But Europe and the last administration steadfastly refused promising security guarantees with troops in Ukraine for 3 years. 3 years and now a month in without even allowing the negotiations to proceed are all on the trumps bet over for Putin blah blah blah.

What rational person has presented a case for how Ukraine is going drive Russia out alone no matter how long nato sends weapons. Which one here, or media pundits, or national military leadership has shown how at this point Ukraine can win with its own forces no matter how well supplied.

Europe and nato (except the eastern part?) at first didn’t even acknowledge Ukraine might actually fight. There were numerous offers for sanctuary for the Zelinski gov. But Ukraine resisted, and bully for them. And slowly and only with dragging feet did nato sends weapons.
Remember them all having clucking sessions if sending tanks or MLRS might cause Putin to contemplate using tactical nukes. Good lord it took a year and a half to make up their mind on jets.

But now that a new admin is trying to negotiate a peace deal but refuses to offer up troops on the ground. Everyone is having kittens.
Trump was quite clear. individual nato countries can send troops to Ukraine outside the article 5 provision of nato.

What everyone is forgetting here is Ukraine will not be joining nato in its current configuration anytime soon.

#1 they are in a contested conflict over clear and definitive boarders. That why it was never even considered before the invasion. It technically can’t even get past the initial application to nato.

I believe they still have a little boarder issue going on.

So when people protest trumps betrayal,
What they’re really protesting for is demanding the US to send our boy and girls to Ukraine to stand on the front and dare Russia to keep fighting.

Here’s Something no one wants to talk about.
Which British unit is going to deploy to Ukraine? Has that been announced yet? French?
Don’t say the Baltics because outside of nato article 5 it would just be an invitation to Russia to mess with them. And that would be as indefensible as what we did to Ukraine.


NATO and the last administration got played! They committed belatedly to supporting Ukraine but have steadfastly refused to actually commit.
And it is for the Ukrainian loss I agree.

But don’t blame this on Trump.
He sent the weapons when Obama wouldn’t and Biden reduced the amounts “to not antagonize Putin”

if it is such a desperate need to do, then Germany France and Britain can send troops in Ukraine. They’re real grown up nations I hear, two actualy have nuclear deterrence.
 
7gtz said:
I believe the UK is going to do exactly that.
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Yes if they get adequate security agreements from the US. It’s just smoke and mirrors. But send them Britain a nuclear power let their nuclear deterrent keep Putin at bay.
 
Regarding the agreement on minerals and security, Ukraine is ready to sign it in any time and in any convenient format.
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Ukraine should demand security guarantees. Without those, it is a one-sided agreement.
 
It is a good step, recommending ceasefire amongst weapons platforms that impact both sides is good.
I know there must be some real security guarantees for Ukraine. Those aren’t just reasonable but necessary.

That Ukraine expects them, has asked for or demanded, is a given. We already know that some of the rumored demands of Russia are unrealistic.
Ive acknowledged from the beginning of this process that these talks might go no where. In fact its a 50/50 bet they die on the table the first round.

If however they do fail to no fault of Ukraine and this war continues it is critical to public support in the west that Ukraine is seen as a willing open partner to the process.

if this is accomplished then leaders can justify continued support as well as a likely expansion of the war.

This puts the burden back on Russia that any doubt they hoped to spread has failed. And the knowledge that this is going to be even more costly to them.

It’s a process
 
DEFCON Warning System said:
Ukraine should demand security guarantees. Without those, it is a one-sided agreement.
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Ukraine shouldn't demand anything. They are caught between two superpowers (not a good place to be) and the US and russia will tell them what's going to happen. I still do predict that if putin doesn't stop shooting after Z bends the knee, you're really going to see what a Nato led by the US military buildup really looks like. We'll see.
 
william said:
Ukraine shouldn't demand anything. They are caught between two superpowers (not a good place to be) and the US and russia will tell them what's going to happen. I still do predict that if putin doesn't stop shooting after Z bends the knee, you're really going to see what a Nato led by the US military buildup really looks like. We'll see.
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I disagree based upon historic agreements it is reasonable for Ukraine to expect some material guarantees. And frankly because nato has supported them this long they owe them some cover. What that might look like I don’t know.

It is possible, I’m unsure what that military build up might look like.

are you following deployment status of key US military units? I haven’t for a while.
 
DarkNoon said:
Reuters: The US is drawing up a plan to potentially give Russia sanctions relief as President Donald Trump seeks to restore ties with Moscow.
https://twitter.com/x/status/1896747644254408730

#USTraitor #RussianPuppet
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Yes in exchange for signing a ceasefire/peace agreement. Why would they leave sanctions on after a peace agreement otherwise what is the point for Russia in signing it?
 
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