UA-RU-NATO War | Discussions | Jun. 1st/Sep. 13th 2025

[Torch]

But it is our problem. Russia is learning that they can do stuff without meaningful consequences.

Nuclear weapons scared the West away from intervening in Ukraine. What else will nuclear weapons scare the West away from? And will Russia get enough confidence that they will advance on something they think the West will back down from but won't? And then where will we be?

Not stopping Russia here only opens the door for further aggression.

You know the saying: Appease the aggressors and they only get more aggressive.

Do you think Russia is going to stop with a part of Ukraine?

How about we invade something next to Russia then rattle some Nuclear weapons? Fear works both ways.

Seriously though, you are right. It is our problem now. The problem is that it shouldn’t HAVE been our problem that a former enemy, the Ukraine was invaded by another former enemy. When I say enemy I mean a full blown full fledge EQUAL partner in the Soviet evil empire. They were not like Poland or even East Germany (which drank the communist kool aid so strongly they swallowed the hook) They were, and are a founding member of team RUS.

We shouldn’t have had to get involved in the 1990’s either. Things would be better if we had stayed home. How congress ever approved this treaty to… oh yeah that’s right. No treaty.

See. I’m so conflicted. I am VERY happy killing Russian invaders. But we haven’t had much success lately and I’m all for closing the door on another half failure. If this is such a huge problem them her European neighbors better jump on it.

We need do take out:

1) Venezuela. Assholes are now rivaling China on illicit fentanyl production. They will need to go down hard.

2) Many many drug cartels and their large armies (they have Tanks, helicopters drones submarines and even a few fighter Aircraft: not something to get terrible alarmed about but it is definitely beyond the scope of law enforcement)


3) Unknown unknown. Placeholder for the almost certain calamity/war to find US before the main event:

4) The beat down. Formosa invasion. China attacking Taiwan.

We are going to beat the snot out of the Chinese right after they beat the crap out of US.

We are going to get seriously hurt. Like WW2 hurt in battles. It is going to be so so bad. Fortunately China isn’t going to be that tough in the next 20 or so years.

The problem is they will easily be number 2. We have grown use to using maxim machine guns on masing tribesmen. Iran or Iraq is like a bumbling Barney Five throw into an MMA match compared to the fight we will have with China. They beat the US back last time by simply having more bodies then we had bullets. (Not really but I omitted effective cause it sounded cooler)

We are going to have to commute to an ass kicking, which the ChiComs will get to enjoy, whether giving or receiving, from 50 yard line tickets. They can even swing by the house during commercials to replenish on snacks. We are going to, at best, mass our troops and Poggi bait for 10,000 miles to get out and cause or become casualties. Then it’s 5000 miles by air to hospitals in Germany. Until those are overwhelmed, sometime during day one. Then ships. Of course the Carrier protecting your convoy just became a reef populated by some of the finest Americans in this or any life. We will be short of everything but chinamen.

So yeah, we need to wrap up this tremendous drain on our supplies and resources in the Ukraine. It’s not about them. It not about Russia, it’s not even about Europe and the EU sliding stupidities into a crushing war with Russia.

Maybe if France (who in my opinion is doing a great job) the UK and Germany fielded some 39, 963 nuclear warheads with delivery systems they wouldn’t have to worry about Russia or China.

But let them be hoisted by their own petard. We, the US, have bigger asiatic fish to fry.

 

[Publius]

Imports of goods from Russia to Europe in the first quarter of 2025 totaled 8.74 billion euros ($10.11 billion), down from 30.58 billion euros four years earlier. Since January 2022, the EU has imported 297 billion euros' worth of Russian goods.

The EU continues to purchase oil, nickel, natural gas, fertilizer, iron, and steel from Russia.

Since January 2022, the U.S. has imported $24.51 billion of Russian goods.

FERTILIZERS

Last year, the U.S. imported around $1.27 billion of Russian fertilizers, up slightly from $1.14 billion in 2021.

URANIUM, PLUTONIUM

The U.S. imported enriched uranium and plutonium from Russia worth around $624 million in 2024, a mere 3% down from $646 million in 2021.

PALLADIUM

Russia exported palladium to the United States for around $878 million in 2024, down from $1.59 billion in 2021.

You want the moral high ground and to cut Putin off totally? Then do it yourself first.

Breath this is going to be over soon.

 

[Publius]

But it is our problem. Russia is learning that they can do stuff without meaningful consequences.

Nuclear weapons scared the West away from intervening in Ukraine. What else will nuclear weapons scare the West away from? And will Russia get enough confidence that they will advance on something they think the West will back down from but won't? And then where will we be?

Not stopping Russia here only opens the door for further aggression.

You know the saying: Appease the aggressors and they only get more aggressive.

Do you think Russia is going to stop with a part of Ukraine?

I don’t honestly think it was the nuclear threat that scared NATO out of intervening.
Yes what Russia tried with it was stupid in my opinion.
I think it was more out of fear of dead NATO troops and the unknown of another forever war. After Afghanistan and Iraq it was simply a bridge to far

 

[Sentry]

Breath this is going to be over soon.

Oh it’s fine, I like having a debate. Not heated or personal from my side don’t worry

 

[Torch]

Oh it’s fine, I like having a debate. Not heated or personal from my side don’t worry

I LIKE India. I like their India first outlook. Consistency is a b*tch and If I like it for the USA (and I do) I need to like it for others.

That said I always try to address it as I see it in the moment. I try to quickly acknowledge changes of opinion, and especially mistakes/errors. I always attempt to interject humor but it is based on mostly 20th century US male centric references. I do think India needs to be less defensive and more “so what” in their responses to the EU, NATO or the USA.

 

[Sentry]

I LIKE India. I like their India first outlook. Consistency is a b*tch and If I like it for the USA (and I do) I need to like it for others.

That said I always try to address it as I see it in the moment. I try to quickly acknowledge changes of opinion, and especially mistakes/errors. I always attempt to interject humor but it is based on mostly 20th century US male centric references. I do think India needs to be less defensive and more “so what” in their responses to the EU, NATO or the USA.

Absolutely and I understand!

 

[Peter Griffin]

CNN: Deep concerns within the Pentagon about the impact of arming Ukraine on America's stockpile.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1953975462671065442

And how many more weapon shipments do they think Ukraine will need when they have to fucking abandon their well built and entrenched defensive positions because Trump thinks it's smart to GIVE territory that YOU control. TO THE FUCKING COUNTRY YOU ARE BEING INVADED BY. NOT EVEN FOR A LASTING PEACE BUT FOR A DAMN CEASEFIRE. Flip the coin, The Usa has been invaded by China. the West coast has fallen, and we are fighting a bitter war of attrition. Our allies that have been helping us fight for our existential right to exist since the beginning, have now seen it as more important to keep their stocks plus instead of BOLSTERING capacity to produce equipment. Leaving us in the dust, and then coming to our front door after a dwindling supply of aid, and FORCING you to come to the negotiation table. All after those countries met with China and already decided the fate of the USA. All at the disdain of US citizens. If you refuse to put yourselves in their shoes and see the absolutely absurd nature of this "PEACE DEAL" then you are blinding yourself to the consequences that this will bring. Russia cannot be trusted to hold a fucking ceasefire. And giving them the frontline will absolutely lead to the second invasion of Ukraine, and this time it will not be with a diminished Russian Armed forces. It will be with the full force and ire of a modern country mobilized with ww2 production numbers. This is absolutely mind boggling that some see this as a legitimate strategy.

 

[Peter Griffin]

How about we invade something next to Russia then rattle some Nuclear weapons? Fear works both ways.

Seriously though, you are right. It is our problem now. The problem is that it shouldn’t HAVE been our problem that a former enemy, the Ukraine was invaded by another former enemy. When I say enemy I mean a full blown full fledge EQUAL partner in the Soviet evil empire. They were not like Poland or even East Germany (which drank the communist kool aid so strongly they swallowed the hook) They were, and are a founding member of team RUS.

We shouldn’t have had to get involved in the 1990’s either. Things would be better if we had stayed home. How congress ever approved this treaty to… oh yeah that’s right. No treaty.

See. I’m so conflicted. I am VERY happy killing Russian invaders. But we haven’t had much success lately and I’m all for closing the door on another half failure. If this is such a huge problem them her European neighbors better jump on it.

We need do take out:

1) Venezuela. Assholes are now rivaling China on illicit fentanyl production. They will need to go down hard.

2) Many many drug cartels and their large armies (they have Tanks, helicopters drones submarines and even a few fighter Aircraft: not something to get terrible alarmed about but it is definitely beyond the scope of law enforcement)


3) Unknown unknown. Placeholder for the almost certain calamity/war to find US before the main event:

4) The beat down. Formosa invasion. China attacking Taiwan.

We are going to beat the snot out of the Chinese right after they beat the crap out of US.

We are going to get seriously hurt. Like WW2 hurt in battles. It is going to be so so bad. Fortunately China isn’t going to be that tough in the next 20 or so years.

The problem is they will easily be number 2. We have grown use to using maxim machine guns on masing tribesmen. Iran or Iraq is like a bumbling Barney Five throw into an MMA match compared to the fight we will have with China. They beat the US back last time by simply having more bodies then we had bullets. (Not really but I omitted effective cause it sounded cooler)

We are going to have to commute to an ass kicking, which the ChiComs will get to enjoy, whether giving or receiving, from 50 yard line tickets. They can even swing by the house during commercials to replenish on snacks. We are going to, at best, mass our troops and Poggi bait for 10,000 miles to get out and cause or become casualties. Then it’s 5000 miles by air to hospitals in Germany. Until those are overwhelmed, sometime during day one. Then ships. Of course the Carrier protecting your convoy just became a reef populated by some of the finest Americans in this or any life. We will be short of everything but chinamen.

So yeah, we need to wrap up this tremendous drain on our supplies and resources in the Ukraine. It’s not about them. It not about Russia, it’s not even about Europe and the EU sliding stupidities into a crushing war with Russia.

Maybe if France (who in my opinion is doing a great job) the UK and Germany fielded some 39, 963 nuclear warheads with delivery systems they wouldn’t have to worry about Russia or China.

But let them be hoisted by their own petard. We, the US, have bigger asiatic fish to fry.

Saying Ukraine was a founding member of the soviet union willingly ignores the history leading up to them becoming a part of said union. It was not voluntary. And those who resisted were imprisoned, killed, or just simply disappeared. Ukraine was independent after the collapse of the Russian Empire. Left deeply divided along ethnic lines and vying for independence while surrounded by neighbors who wanted to eat their land. An entire famine was manufactured to kill dissent in Ukraine. Ukraine was never our enemy, they were subjugated to the Soviet Union through the threat of violence and death. If anything, since the fall of the Soviet Union, Ukraine has shown that they want to be a part of the European community, want to be our strategic allies, and are willing to hold the line against the Russians. To throw all of that away without taking into account the morality of forcing a country to give land to their invaders, would be moronic. And a waste of billions of dollars that we have already invested in Ukraines success. Once again, why is the strategy of our government when it comes to military procurement favor the status quo over fulfilling quotas or deficits? Because it allows these wars to take place. It allows countries to be gobbled up, turned into chaos, gives a reason for them to shit out some new high tech super tools that will have 5 total made meanwhile our artillery shells are maybe enough for a couple weeks. It's pathetic that they think people are blind to what they are doing. Acting like they care about how many Ukrainians have died while ignoring how many more will die when Russia is confident they CAN take the entire country. What will they say of the civilians when the UFA have no weapons to defend, and Russia starts putting Ukrainians on trains back to Russia, all the while Kyiv becomes free real estate for Russian colonials just like so many other Ukrainian cities under occupation have?

 

[Peter Griffin]

 

[Peter Griffin]

 

[Peter Griffin]

Will our leaders have the same humbleness to admit their mistakes should they come to fruition? Or will it had been all a part of the grand plan?

 

[Snowfall]

And how many more weapon shipments do they think Ukraine will need when they have to fucking abandon their well built and entrenched defensive positions because Trump thinks it's smart to GIVE territory that YOU control.

Ukraine won’t give up the position if they don’t want to, if they don’t agree with the U.S. proposal they just won’t implement it. The U.S. has basically already cut weapons shipments and I’m sure they’re not going to turn down money for the defense industry.

 

[Snowfall]

Not really the same situation, nobody was arming the Czechoslovakians. Also the Czechoslovakians weren’t in a position to keep fighting so they stood down, the Ukrainians will just keep fighting if they don’t agree with them especially since the Europeans will keep arming them. No matter what the White House says this war is not even close to over.

 

[Peter Griffin]

Ukraine won’t give up the position if they don’t want to, if they don’t agree with the U.S. proposal they just won’t implement it. The U.S. has basically already cut weapons shipments and I’m sure they’re not going to turn down money for the defense industry.

Not really the same situation, nobody was arming the Czechoslovakians. Also the Czechoslovakians weren’t in a position to keep fighting so they stood down, the Ukrainians will just keep fighting if they don’t agree with them especially since the Europeans will keep arming them. No matter what the White House says this war is not even close to over.

Full relevance doesn't denounce nuanced similarities between the two situations. In the aspect of trusting Dictators to keep there word the comparison is steadfast. We aren't arguing whether or not Czechoslovakians would have kept defending their nation with the additional military support (that was promised to them), I was pointing out the strategy that Trump is taking is eerily similiar to Chamberlain. It isn't relevant that Ukraine will keep fighting to him, he would rather sanction and embargo Ukraine than help them drive out the Russians. You are right that the Czechs weren't in a position to keep fighting, now ask yourself why? And you will begin to see the point I am trying to make.

 

[Peter Griffin]

"They will just stop at Sudentenland" "They will just stop at Donetsk, Kharkiv, Kherson, Crimea, Etc..."

 

[Torch]

Saying Ukraine was a founding member of the soviet union willingly ignores the history leading up to them becoming a part of said union. It was not voluntary. And those who resisted were imprisoned, killed, or just simply disappeared. Ukraine was independent after the collapse of the Russian Empire. Left deeply divided along ethnic lines and vying for independence while surrounded by neighbors who wanted to eat their land. An entire famine was manufactured to kill dissent in Ukraine. Ukraine was never our enemy, they were subjugated to the Soviet Union through the threat of violence and death. If anything, since the fall of the Soviet Union, Ukraine has shown that they want to be a part of the European community, want to be our strategic allies, and are willing to hold the line against the Russians. To throw all of that away without taking into account the morality of forcing a country to give land to their invaders, would be moronic. And a waste of billions of dollars that we have already invested in Ukraines success. Once again, why is the strategy of our government when it comes to military procurement favor the status quo over fulfilling quotas or deficits? Because it allows these wars to take place. It allows countries to be gobbled up, turned into chaos, gives a reason for them to shit out some new high tech super tools that will have 5 total made meanwhile our artillery shells are maybe enough for a couple weeks. It's pathetic that they think people are blind to what they are doing. Acting like they care about how many Ukrainians have died while ignoring how many more will die when Russia is confident they CAN take the entire country. What will they say of the civilians when the UFA have no weapons to defend, and Russia starts putting Ukrainians on trains back to Russia, all the while Kyiv becomes free real estate for Russian colonials just like so many other Ukrainian cities under occupation have?

You are correct.

Joe Stalin starved or killed outright millions of separatist and just plain Ukrainians. I was wrong. I was thinking of them as a willing aggressor in the Warsaw pact, who were expected to willingly and aggressively fight, unlike Poland who’s troops we were told would not be kindly inclined to their Russian overlords. My sources were multiple OPD classes (officer professional development classes, usually several hours a week. They were focused on defeating the enemy and their current disposition. Such an egregious oversight in the UA’.s motivations are …egregious?

Still I would not have sign on such a memorandum and therefore still would not fell compelled to help. I am trying to illustrate a fine point. I would help Belarus fight off a Russian invasion. I wouldn’t somehow elevate them to what they are not. Undemocratic corrupt and perhaps less evil.

 

[Sentry]

I would not have sign on such a memorandum and therefore still would not fell compelled to help

The memorandum was also signed by Russia . If only Ukraine had been allowed to keep their nukes!

 

[Snowfall]

The memorandum was also signed by Russia . If only Ukraine had been allowed to keep their nukes!

Ukraine had no control whatsoever over the nuclear weapons though. It was a fairly easy decision for them to give them up considering they were broke at the time.

 

[Snowfall]

Full relevance doesn't denounce nuanced similarities between the two situations. In the aspect of trusting Dictators to keep their word the comparison is steadfast. We aren't arguing whether or not Czechoslovakians would have kept defending their nation with the additional military support (that was promised to them), I was pointing out the strategy that Trump is taking is eerily similiar to Chamberlain. It isn't relevant that Ukraine will keep fighting to him, he would rather sanction and embargo Ukraine than help them drive out the Russians. You are right that the Czechs weren't in a position to keep fighting, now ask yourself why? And you will begin to see the point I am trying to make.

But the nazis were only able to keep going because Czechoslovakian up and surrendered so they just moved on to the next place. Russia can’t move on if their still trapped in the same fight.

 

[Sentry]

Ukraine had no control whatsoever over the nuclear weapons though. It was a fairly easy decision for them to give them up considering they were broke at the time.

Ukrainian scientists designed the missiles and weapons of the Soviet Union. I'm sure they could have stripped the warheads down and re-engineered them, or simply used the fissile material present there to develop their own weapons. They surely had the scientific acumen and the knowledge.