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Should the U.S. Reassess Its Military Role in Europe and Shift Focus to Asia?

Snowfall said:
Yeah I’d bet my life savings that was not nuclear
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I watched the video myself it was clearly conventional in fact it was less of an explosion than it was in Beirut Capital when that fertilizer went up in flames if anything the Beirut Capital explosion a couple years ago would definitely look like a technical nuclear explosion versus this...
 
Torch said:
Does Europe not realize the USA is no longer concerned with Nato? We were pulling back/out already and now many in The EU/NATO want to complain ghe cant oil, but wont DO anything to help secure it.

The Eu and western NATO members are seen as feckless, ineffective and most of all, untrustworthy allies. The US is basing these planes in Europe to protect YOU. It is the height of arrogance for the EU to think we might not need are own planes somewhere else sometimes.

So not only is the USA required to defend Europe, apparently europe/Nato believe the USA must solely dedicate our equipment and soldiers to EU/Nato’s exclusive, personal and private security.

Europe is wrong and the USA, right or wrong, has now moved on without her.
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This weakens both the EU and the US. Nothing good can come from the breakdown of NATO.
 
Onoya said:
Let's stay on topic, i've never said (or thinked) that the USA's contribution wasn't as significant as others, and i don't even know why you bring WW2 up?


About the neighbor metaphor, we are in a different situation. The USA since few months has been acting against Europe, even threatening of invasion (and Tarriff if we didn't supported the US's take over of Greenland). Now, the US started a war that is affecting all of Europe and won't finish it. Basically, if the US don't finish what they started, then they are basically making a mess and letting other clean up. All of that does make the USA seen as unreliable, untrustworthy and not credible. It doesn't means that Europe will cut all ties with the US.

Also, about the event of a Russian attack on Nato, even without the US, they won't be able to invade. They tried and failed to invade Ukraine after several years of war, Europe is already providing majority of military and intel aid to Ukraine. Russia isn't able to invade Europe currently (even in a situation of a conventionnal war without the use of nuclear arsenal)

However, i agree that Europe needs to step up to defend the ocean. We are on the way of improving on that, but we need to do better.


Don't worry, we don't need to WTFU, we are already awoken (awaken?) and working on improvment. But you need to start being aware of how the USA isn't seen as an trustworthy ally anymore (which is a good thing for Europe), and that the diplomatic damage that the current administration did will take years to repair
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What you need to realize is that the US does not care anymore. Europe has been a fat out of shape military force for three decades. Yes there are a few dedicated specialty divisions in Europe. But as nation states they broke the trust two decades ago.
So for a French citizen complaining about the feckless behavior of the US. That’s rich!!!

As far as the US invading nato. Can we move on from that hyperbole. The US and Denmark are in ongoing military interoperability planning. They are also in active talks for ways to expand security in the arcitic
I mentioned this before. Greenland was on track for independence from Denmark.
A substance economy with a population of 55,000. Also dependent on aid from Denmark.
How long does everyone think it would take for China to buy the politicians of Greenland and gain defacto control.
So be aghast and appalled over how Trump behaved.
There are legitimate security issues with Greenlands up coming independence.
That we had to throw nine banger flash grenade into the issue to get everyone’s attention. Says more about Europe than it does the US
 
Lostpuppy said:
Funny enough you are on the point with honoring obligations and blindly funnel aid, seems to make sense, strangly,
With respect to risk in Iran i agree its risky, very similar to Afganastan, Iraq, Syria, its everything about the midfle east is a minefield🤔

“Is the ardor with which people attack success in Iran less about risking improving things in the Middle East.
And more to do with the failure of a particular public figure.

Now if you directed this
“Maybe ask questions and spend less time flagellating oneself and others.”
in my direction 🤔

Success in Iran? Can you identify the success? Is the war won,? Hormuz opened? Oil prices lower? any other things you might come up with?

Improvements, , Expand on those improvements?

Why does failure of a particular public matter?
Can you expand? Iranian politicians? Are politicians who also have a responsiblity of leadership almost always the center of targetted prose be it good or bad?

Ardor, and attacking, Are you suggesting that comments and debate are Left right or center leaning ? This whole forum has that tendancy. 🤔

Asking question is a very good as opposed to whipping and lashing out I agree,
If we extract the politics and greed out of our world,
We would likely find peace🤞🏻

Appology for my rant(diatribe)
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If long term disruption of Irans proxy activities and missile development was the actual goal. Then yeah we’ve already won.
Or if putting a fine point dot on what it is we expect to see from our allies. Then yeah, mission complete.

After all it might easily be reasoned that these attacks might not result in regime change. By this I mean the actual expectation of the current admin, our military, and Intelligence community. Might have expected at the outset the IRGC might not collapse.
If that’s true then it’s easy enough to extrapolate disruption itself might have been adequate cause.

We think of military intervention almost exclusively in terms of the either or total victory or failure.
It we all know from history and conflicts this is not the reality of military conflict between nations.
England patrolled the oceans for almost eight decades intervening and suppressing the slave trade. Was that a failure? Oh we’ve been stopping slave ships for three months and the slave trade shows no indication of stopping.
Thank God Great Britain’s leaders didn’t throw in the towel regarding seeing and end to the international slave trade.

As far as a particular ardor in any commentary. Yes I maintain some would rather see this effort to redirect Irans actions fail. Rather than seeing success of any particular public figure

I did not criticize the efforts of the west i. supporting Ukraine irrespective of who was in Office. Only when it became apparent that the allies, including the US. Were not going to do enough of what was necessary to achieve victory did I begin to question the effort to see victory in Ukraine.

We can dream of extracting politics and self-interest out of the world.

But it will not serve you well in your dealings with other nation states.
It’s simply not reality.

Maybe I was too quick to question the ardor of some post. It I stand by it some would rather see IRGC regain the upper hand rather see this particular administration achieve a successful out come.
 
Yingyang said:
Iranian capacity and capabilities is no comparison to China. Neither were the houthis. Yet both iran and the houthis on seperate occasions have kept the US NAVY at distance. China is much more capable of this for their scenario and theatre. The US NAVY are well aware of this. Bugger all they can do for taiwan due to proximity to mainland China.
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Again fight the war with ALL of the military capabilities you have. Or don’t fight at all.
A war between China and the US I believe exponentially more likely to go nuclear. Than anything we saw between the US and Soviets
So part of that war calculus for China or the US is what are odds it goes nuclear?
Is my particular leadership and nation willing to fight a war that includes nuclear weapons?

Dont like it but nothing is going to change that. And maybe that uncertainty will be enough to keep the US and China from going to war with each other.

But looking at purely from a place of self interest. I want my nation to be unequivocal and resolute in what our response would be if the other nation escalated to tactical nukes.
Overwhelming and unrestrained nuclear strike.
Remember in the dance of nations posturing is as relevant and important as moving and positioning of armies
 
RiffRaff said:
This weakens both the EU and the US. Nothing good can come from the breakdown of NATO.
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Lots of good things can happen. First we finally come home from WW2. The EU is a direct competitor to the USA and whilst we pay for their defense they can brag about free healthcare and free college something United States doesn’t have because we’re busy defending Europe from a war that ended hard 80 years ago and the Cold War ended 35 years ago.

We have no business being over there. We don’t need to be over there. We need to be throughout Alaska. We need to be in doubling down in Guam. We need to be hitting up island chains all throughout the pacific.

We need to find allies throughout the Pacific. We need to start treating South American countries as full equal partners and we need to develop a plan and re-distribute troops to defend them from the Chinese.

Of all the things we must do, wasting time protecting a country (the EU) that has a greater landmass, greater population and greater gross domestic product than United States is simply stupid.

The concept, from the very beginning is to take advantage of the United States.

Thats not something we want to do anymore with false and feckless allies. On top of that, it’s not something we can afford to do any longer. From this point forward and from far too long, we must make hard singular choices.

We can do A or we can do B but we cannot do both as the US can no longer afford it.
 
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Publius said:
Again fight the war with ALL of the military capabilities you have. Or don’t fight at all.
A war between China and the US I believe exponentially more likely to go nuclear. Than anything we saw between the US and Soviets
So part of that war calculus for China or the US is what are odds it goes nuclear?
Is my particular leadership and nation willing to fight a war that includes nuclear weapons?

Dont like it but nothing is going to change that. And maybe that uncertainty will be enough to keep the US and China from going to war with each other.

But looking at purely from a place of self interest. I want my nation to be unequivocal and resolute in what our response would be if the other nation escalated to tactical nukes.
Overwhelming and unrestrained nuclear strike.
Remember in the dance of nations posturing is as relevant and important as moving and positioning of armies
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When has the US ever directly gone to war with a nuclear capable country? In answer to your question of direct conflict. NO the US hasn't and would'nt risk a direct conventional war with a country confirmed to possess a nuclear weapon . Not even soviet days shortly after being allies in ww2. (Eg. Cuba.) Tactical, icbm or slbm. Previously NORTH KOREA great example since acquiring nuclear weapons regional and more recently icbms. Ukraine vs Russia NO NATO COUNTRY INCLUDING AMERICA has risked direct conflict only as proxies hoping for avoidance.Still only support and supplies.( Fight a war with all capabilities) proven in this current theatre due to strait closure and no US warships entering to support trade access through the hormuz strait shipping route. Yeah Iran for a non nuclear challenge is holding its own rather well considering that fact and destruction of US bases throughout ME along with radars and defence systems . Not to mention regime still in place. Or nuclear material etc not found and removed . That is history and currently unless you have evidence for debate?
 
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Publius said:
If long term disruption of Irans proxy activities and missile development was the actual goal. Then yeah we’ve already won.
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Not at all. Iranian oil has not been affected to any extent. So money continues to come in. So Iran can fund proxies and missile development.

And now you have an even more hardline government in place.
 
Torch said:
Lots of things, good can happen. First we finally come home from WW2. The EU is a direct competitor to the USA and whilst we pay for their defense they can brag about free healthcare and free college something United States doesn’t have because we’re busy defending Europe from a war that ended hard 80 years ago and the Cold War ended 35 years ago.
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You forgot to add "MAGA!!" at the end of your post.
Seems more like that your analysis of the situation is more based on the hate against Europe, rather than economical/strategic facts.

The fact that you begin with the whole story that europeans brag about free healthcare and college, is already a good demonstration of your bias, which skips the small fact that all these things are financed by taxes, which in France can get up to 47% of the revenue.

So sad to read this into this forum, which once was a source of good geopolical discussions, instead of pure political hate.
I miss the old days staff.
 
Charmender said:
You forgot to add "MAGA!!" at the end of your post.
Seems more like that your analysis of the situation is more based on the hate against Europe, rather than economical/strategic facts.

The fact that you begin with the whole story that europeans brag about free healthcare and college, is already a good demonstration of your bias, which skips the small fact that all these things are financed by taxes, which in France can get up to 47% of the revenue.

So sad to read this into this forum, which once was a source of good geopolical discussions, instead of pure political hate.
I miss the old days staff.
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Indeed, there's a lot of racism towards Europe.

Furthermore, @torche is a moderator; these people follow the Trumpian trend. The only moderator with any sense is the deputy director.
 
Torch said:
Lots of things, good can happen. First we finally come home from WW2. The EU is a direct competitor to the USA and whilst we pay for their defense they can brag about free healthcare and free college something United States doesn’t have because we’re busy defending Europe from a war that ended hard 80 years ago and the Cold War ended 35 years ago
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Really egregious to suggest that the country with the biggest military budget in the world has it because its protecting Europe. What a joke you really think the military budget portion could actually funding NATO (750 mil btw) comes anywhere close to the 1.5 trillion trump is asking for in the 2027 budget. Maybe cut the shit with being the world police and filling the pockets of the military complex and send some of that back to the people, or all of it

I really hope one day that we as citizens could choose where our tax money goes or a portion of it, to what programs are funded. Watch how much goes into military spending then...
 
DEFCON Warning System said:
Not at all. Iranian oil has not been affected to any extent. So money continues to come in. So Iran can fund proxies and missile development.

And now you have an even more hardline government in place.
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Russia also makes a lot of money, and well, you won't make me cry. 77 million Americans voted for Trump. All those people knew Trump.

You're going to lose any war with anyone:
Donald Trump is not a good president.

A good president always manages to unite the entire population, even those who didn't vote for him. Trump is doing the opposite.

Remember, unity is strength.
 
Wow, 😂😂 you kids have stoked a debate,
Briefly either the argument breaks on bipartisan divide thinking or the current reality show world we are now in?🤔

When read on true budgets ,prior to waiting time on well worded statements, you may find following the money will show the answers you are looking for.

Ask yourself to honestly,(non biased) who in this government is making money? What staffers gave copious donations in trade for? (jobs, budiness lobbies……)

Should pull out of Europe? Sure why not?
The money saved will go to free medical, education, lower gas prices,🤔 Right?

Should ALL politician not be able to make large amounts of money, yep!
Elected for the people , by the people, common people, not a chosen elite,

Elite, yes, i said it! not many if any could last a day at a Ford line! A better standard to even qualify should be held as the powers entrusted to political leaders is great it effects you the voter now and generations.

Should the USA stop being world police?
The other choices would be 2 rather nasty dictatorships( Russia China,) Kinda answers that question then,

Should the tax paying voting citizen be respected as also the person who has the liberty to fire the ass out of a politican who is failing, Yes! Do you vote, then you gsan the right to bitch and complain. Dont vote? Then shut your mouth, you gave up uour right!

Yes leave Europe, they are big kids, they except Orban (trouble child) They have nukes too! Its up to them to ratyle them.

Happy Easter, may peace find us all one day🤞🏻
 
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