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UA-RU | April 1st-10th | DISCUSSION

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Obreid said:
It could be. Crying that a whole nation is inhabited by nazis that are a threat to the Russian people has just worn thin with me there’s been no evidence of that.
As you say in war everyone can be prone to doing horrible things. We listened to during the work up to this war that Ukrainians are killing civilians in the breakaway provinces. UN investigators and Amnesty international did conclude there were but the truth of the matter was it was they were committed by both sides.
That popular fatality number of 14000 people killed in the region and so frequently laid at the feet of the fascist Ukrainians was actually divided somewhat equally between Ukraine militias or military, separatist rebels, and a slightly smaller civilian population killed in frequent intense urban fighting between them.
Or the bio weapons accusation where the only proof provided was the existence labs and pathogens samples indigenous to the region.
These labs weren’t secret squirrel labs they were registered acknowledged labs that the international community knew existed.
I do not mean this as an attack or harsh rebuttal to you by any means. It’s an explanation of my rational of my opinion.
As far as what likely happened in Bucharest. I came to some certainty last night when the region was opened up to what seems to be quite a lot of reporters.
If these bodies were staged and desecrated by the Ukrainian military it would be a huge risk to stage this in a populated areas and then allow international reporters into the area and hope that not one reporter didn’t find one or more civilians making statements that the bodies were staged by Ukrainians.
Anyway that’s why i don’t put faith in Russian accusations right now.
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You make some good points; and may I point out that I am in no way condoning or taking sides. I find the whole situation abhorrent and appalling. It is a pointless waste of life; and invariably, innocents suffer most. My own gripe is with the way the whole thing is being presented. The levels of propaganda and heightened feelings that are being generated by the media (establishment) doesn't sit right with me. The narrative is totally subjective. So many things that - to my mind at least - seem relevant are overlooked in relation to the conflict itself. There is no room for sitting in the middle and trying to logically dissect the constant flow of information because of the emotive nature of what we dealing with; and that in itself makes getting to the truth of the matter virtually impossible.

I truly feel for all those innocents who have suffered and died. Alas, it seems a permanent part of the human condition (another conversation for another time).

Thank you for your thoughtful response. It is good we can discuss such matters without resorting to puerile behaviour.
 
Tuor80 said:
You make some good points; and may I point out that I am in no way condoning or taking sides. I find the whole situation abhorrent and appalling. It is a pointless waste of life; and invariably, innocents suffer most. My own gripe is with the way the whole thing is being presented. The levels of propaganda and heightened feelings that are being generated by the media (establishment) doesn't sit right with me. The narrative is totally subjective. So many things that - to my mind at least - seem relevant are overlooked in relation to the conflict itself. There is no room for sitting in the middle and trying to logically dissect the constant flow of information because of the emotive nature of what we dealing with; and that in itself makes getting to the truth of the matter virtually impossible.

I truly feel for all those innocents who have suffered and died. Alas, it seems a permanent part of the human condition (another conversation for another time).

Thank you for your thoughtful response. It is good we can discuss such matters without resorting to puerile behaviour.
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Your correct about the way it’s being spun up and the indignation fun fest.
Part of that all serves the purpose of trying to shock the Russian population and move them to doubt. It done to us as well and it is as much a part conflict and war as guns and diplomacy.
 
Obreid said:
Your correct about the way it’s being spun up and the indignation fun fest.
Part of that all serves the purpose of trying to shock the Russian population and move them to doubt. It done to us as well and it is as much a part conflict and war as guns and diplomacy.
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I have my doubts about the Russian people turning on Putin. They too are fully engaged in a propaganda war with their own people. Just listening to their TV makes me want to hit my head off the wall. But then, that is part of their make-up. They like to talk tough and create a siege mentality.
 
Zelenskiy has failed the Ukrainian people by deliberately not preparing (or preparing too late) when the threat was looming for weeks to months so these atrocities could occur and since he’s a comedian the “hero” president of Ukraine is allowing a series of disturbing jokes to happen to his constituents . “Slava Ukraini” should be followed up with “My khochemo povernuty Poroshenka!” (We want Poroshenko back!).
 
Shadow_Eden said:
Zelenskiy has failed the Ukrainian people by deliberately not preparing (or preparing too late) when the threat was looming for weeks to months so these atrocities could occur and since he’s a comedian the “hero” president of Ukraine is allowing a series of disturbing jokes to happen to his constituents . “Slava Ukraini” should be followed up with “My khochemo povernuty Poroshenka!” (We want Poroshenko back!).
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The idea that Zelenskyy wanted or predicted these atrocities to happen, or somehow is to blame for them, instead of the Russians who perpetuated them, is absurd. He's a hero because his life was directly threatened and he chose to stay and lead his people through a war for their very existence. Imo, it's a high bar to reach, but all Ukranians are heroes for fighting back their invader.

He did the best he could. That's really anyone can do, and suggesting that he should've done this or should've done that misses that this man never asked for this war. He's human and he makes mistakes, even if he is a hero, and I don't think any of us could've done better if we were in his shoes.
 
Splinters said:
The idea that Zelenskyy wanted or predicted these atrocities to happen, or somehow is to blame for them, instead of the Russians who perpetuated them, is absurd. He's a hero because his life was directly threatened and he chose to stay and lead his people through a war for their very existence. Imo, it's a high bar to reach, but all Ukranians are heroes for fighting back their invader.

He did the best he could. That's really anyone can do, and suggesting that he should've done this or should've done that misses that this man never asked for this war. He's human and he makes mistakes, even if he is a hero, and I don't think any of us could've done better if we were in his shoes.
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I’m saying that his inaction to prepare adequately when it was just an extremely tangible threat just like the fable of the grasshopper and the ant. Putin would be the ant in this situation despite his poorly planned campaign he prepared, Zelenskiy did not think that it was coming until it in fact did like the grasshopper when winter came. Also Zelenskiy did not consider Murphy’s Law being applied to this situation.
 
Shadow_Eden said:
I’m saying that his inaction to prepare adequately when it was just an extremely tangible threat just like the fable of the grasshopper and the ant. Putin would be the ant in this situation despite his poorly planned campaign he prepared, Zelenskiy did not think that it was coming until it in fact did like the grasshopper when winter came. Also Zelenskiy did not consider Murphy’s Law being applied to this situation.
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Murphys law isn't an actual law, especially not in geopolitics or war.

As for your statement. Yes. He didn't prepare the Ukranians as well as he should've, despite all of the warnings. But, that was a mistake in the past, does that devalidate all of his actions now? I certainly don't think he's to blame for what has happened to his country, that lies solely with Putin.
 
Splinters said:
Murphys law isn't an actual law, especially not in geopolitics or war.

As for your statement. Yes. He didn't prepare the Ukranians as well as he should've, despite all of the warnings. But, that was a mistake in the past, does that devalidate all of his actions now? I certainly don't think he's to blame for what has happened to his country, that lies solely with Putin.
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The least he could’ve done was supply the civilian fighters with uniforms and do a formal conscription to lessen the risk of mostly Chechen and Siberian conscripts/volunteers razing villages because of combatants wearing street clothes. Foresight is important, so is preparing for any possible situation to minimize casualties.
 
Shadow_Eden said:
The least he could’ve done was supply the civilian fighters with uniforms and do a formal conscription to lessen the risk of mostly Chechen and Siberian conscripts/volunteers razing villages because of combatants wearing street clothes. Foresight is important, so is preparing for any possible situation to minimize casualties.
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What does it really matter now, though? These judgements degrade a man going through a hellish situation. He is the leader of a country at war for its very survival. I'd say he's doing better than he was doing then.
 
Splinters said:
What does it really matter now, though? These judgements degrade a man going through a hellish situation. He is the leader of a country at war for its very survival. I'd say he's doing better than he was doing then.
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Lying back to Russia would’ve given them some time to prepare ala a reverse Blitzkrieg such as: claiming that the Ukrainian youth need to do service because they’re acting too “western” and lack “traditional Ukrainian values” or even doing a conscription for “civil engineering” purposes. Acquire personnel equipment shipments as “sporting good” shipments etc.
 
Obreid said:
Did you post these two together to show the vain frivolous political showmanship of Washington politicians vs. the real life problems in Ukraine🤨
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Interestingly enough they where next to each other in my feed. Tweets where posted seemingly simultaneously at same time. But you know I like to show both sides view point. But there is a limit of course between seeing other side and pointing out obvious propaganda or misinformation.
 
Shadow_Eden said:
Zelenskiy has failed the Ukrainian people by deliberately not preparing (or preparing too late) when the threat was looming for weeks to months so these atrocities could occur and since he’s a comedian the “hero” president of Ukraine is allowing a series of disturbing jokes to happen to his constituents . “Slava Ukraini” should be followed up with “My khochemo povernuty Poroshenka!” (We want Poroshenko back!).
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The seemingly unprepared Ukrainians seem to be doing a fairly good job against the super prepared and mighty Russian army. No one can plan for barbaric behavior and the wanton destruction of civilian life that has been enacted by the Russians on the people of Ukraine.
 
Shadow_Eden said:
Lying back to Russia would’ve given them some time to prepare ala a reverse Blitzkrieg such as: claiming that the Ukrainian youth need to do service because they’re acting too “western” and lack “traditional Ukrainian values” or even doing a conscription for “civil engineering” purposes. Acquire personnel equipment shipments as “sporting good” shipments etc.
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Maybe Zelensky thought the world has become more civil and didnt realize PootyPoo would be cowering in a bunker in Russia calling people on his tin cans and string to "Defeat the Nazis' while getting a swastika tattooed on his forehead. Alternatively, Ukraine put too many eggs in the west and NATO for help and when the time came, he was left holding the bag.
 
krzepice1976 said:
www.newstatesman.com

“Russia cannot afford to lose, so we need a kind of a victory”: Sergey Karaganov on what Putin wants

The Kremlin adviser explains how Russia views the war in Ukraine and the fate of liberalism.
www.newstatesman.com www.newstatesman.com
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It’s an interesting read. I think some of his suppositions are wrong. What I see in it isn’t a fight to defend to defend Russian nation but to defend the Russian elites (his words).
He faults the failures of Ukrainian gov on being a puppet of the west. Yet ignore the reality that the gov model for Ukraine was based first on Czarist Russia the the Soviet’s and lastly the Russian federation.
It’s supposed that somehow the last 15-20 years of western “meddling” has hurt the Ukrainian statehood abilities.
In fact what he is saying is Ukraine is in the process of transitioning from a vassal state to an independent state.

I do agree with him in that dispute will not be over till all the issues are settled.
 
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