You can't end the war until Russia truly has hurt and it truly comes to negotiate in good faith because its been hurt, badly. Neither have been achieved. Anything else is just rewarding his behavior and PROMISE we will be right back here sooner then later doing exactly what Trump seeks to do. Peiord.
How much more hurt can Ukraine, more precisely, Ukrainians possibly withstand to achieve the goal of mortally hurting Russia?
It takes 67 votes in senate to leave NATO. So where NEVER leaving NATO. NO matter how much the orange clown complains about it. GOP is not going find 16 DEMs to vote to leave NATO.
Thousands of people will die regardless, the only difference is if it will be in a Russian occupation or not.
Rather deal with the situation now. Rather then kick the can down the line and deal with an emboldened & stronger russia down the line which inevitably will happen by seeking the appeasement route.
Question is if the US will sell out not only Ukraine but Europe itself too the coming 4 years, if Russia successfully gets non-isolated it's effectively a signal that they can continue to push their view of the world unless the EU or actors in the EU do something that deters Russia.
But how exactly are you going to get them to that point? Again I want Russia to lose this thing it’s just a matter of being realistic literally nobody has put forward a conclusive plan on how to win this war. Europe and the United States have delayed at every single opportunity so it’s clear they’re never gonna give them enough weapons to win because clearly neither of them cares enough.
Europe shouldn’t have to be alone but it’s ridiculous to an independent Europe to say they should not be the primary guarantee of their own safety. Europe has had decades to get the ball rolling on that one but chooses not to every single chance they get. That’s what people have a problem with.
Plan? I just told you. Waredown Russia until they themselves come to the table with willingness & not coming to the table because Trump already gave away publicly their negotiating points and terms essentially what is appeasement that is getting Putin to the table right now.
Most of the plans have been to support Ukraine as far as possible, give them more weapons, etc. The Russian economy is in shambles, and paired with the fact that the equipment reserves for Russia are running there will be a point where they will be forced to the negotiating table and would make more consessions for Ukraine. Probably not this year, but way more likely the next year. Instead Russia is controlling the narrative that Trump hears, (coupled with the fact that he also doesn't like Zelensky since he didn't bring him dirt on Hunter Biden) and wants to be brought back into cooperation with the US and get their economy going again in exchange for a freeze and elections in Ukraine which they will want to influence as much as possible in order to get a leader to make even more consessions to them in the final deal after the elections. A renewed economy after the final deal also means that they can rebuild their military in order for the next time they attack Ukraine to undo them for good or at least make them a Belarus-style Union State with measures to undo the culture entirely together with brutal takedowns of anyone west-aligned. The only real way to prevent another war is to give Ukraine security guarantees in this situation, or get them to join the EU (if Slovakia and Hungary can be bribed to it I guess), but as always Russia is one step forward with the negotiations in order to cause a wedge between Europe and the US. The only way forward is simple: Si vis pacem, para bellum.
Then how is it any different from negotiating now? In your own words Crimea is gone forever therefore the Ukrainians are giving up Ukrainian land and rewarding Russia for invading. The Russians are never going to allow Ukraine in NATO either that’s a nonstarter for them for negotiations as it would mean they lied to their own citizens about ending the war. So basically the entire discussion is do we negotiate now or in a couple years while Russia continues to slowly advance and Ukraine continues to have a worsening man power problem even though both situations will end up with the same agreement except at that point Ukraine will have lost even more territory.
Where only putting ourselves in that situation you laid out. We can entirely 100% change the situation on the ground if we put the initiative forward. But instead where putting our heads in the sand and kicking the can down the road or falling for Russian
Propoganda. No, sorry you lost me again.
Once again this ignores the Ukranian manpower problem. Weapons are great as long as you have someone to fire them. The Russian economy is bad but when you can pull money from more and more social programs and buy ammo from Iran and North Korea for pennies on the dollar the odds of it truly collapsing are near zero for at least the next year or two. In that year or two Ukraine will continue to lose thousands of men and they really can’t draft any more men without destroying the countries future generation. It’s better to negotiate now and get good solid security guarantees then to lose even more men and land and be in a even worse position to negotiate.
I guess I don’t know what you really expect. It’s basically a fantasy at this point that Ukraine will be able to advance any further thanks to the manpower problem. Give Ukraine decent security guarantees and it won’t be a matter of kicking the can down the road. That way if he tries it again he has to face a considerably more powerful and well trained Ukranian army.Where only putting ourselves in that situation you laid out. We can entirely 100% change the situation on the ground if we put the initiative forward. But instead where putting our heads in the sand and kicking the can down the road or falling for Russian
The "slow burn" your talking about Ukraine suffering is entirely by western design, unintentionally or not, it is our actions that have lead us to this point AND it can be our actions that turn it around for Ukraine, it can be far from over. But I guess we rather play kicking the can down the road because it's "to hard" right now. Guess what. Only going to get worse appeasing Putin like we are right now.
Will have to agree to tremendously disagree then.
The problem is that Russia does not want security guarantees to Ukraine for that reason, and likely won't negotiate in good faith in order to prevent that.
And that’s the point where I hope Europe and Ukraine tell the U.S. and Russia to pound sand and keep fighting. To be clear I think Ukraine deserves a fair outcome from negotiations and security guarantees and eu membership are the bare minimum for that I just think it’s better to at least try it now and if the Russian ends up just trying to get them to fully surrender then we should bail on negotiations. Which sounds like the position of Rubio and Kellogg fingers crossed they can get Trump on board with that.
"Ware them down." russia is a superpower, Ukraine is not. What is there, like 11 time zones in russia. You have to be realistic about it.
www.worldometers.info
www.worldometers.info
Out of curiosity do you know if there’s numbers on money given in the form of weapons vs humanitarian causes. Not trying to argue just genuinely curious.
