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Charlie Kirk Shot Dead in Assassination | Sep. 10th-21st/2025 | Discussions Closed

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That's a good point. I stand corrected.
For each registered firearm, there are about 7-10 illegal firearms. In certain states, it's as high as 0.2-0.3 per citizen. Still far less than the US, but if you take into account our population being four times the size of America, we'd effectively have the same amount of firearms.
 
For each registered firearm, there are about 7-10 illegal firearms. In certain states, it's as high as 0.2-0.3 per citizen.
There's something wrong with this arithmetic. If the official rate is 0.06, and the actual rate is 8-11 times higher (7-10 illegal arms and one legal arm), then, even assuming the low end of that range, you're looking at an average of 0.48 per citizen, with some states presumably exceeding that.

But yeah; I generally agree with the point you're making - the above is just nitpicking.
 
There's something wrong with this arithmetic. If the official rate is 0.06, and the actual rate is 8-11 times higher (7-10 illegal arms and one legal arm), then, even assuming the low end of that range, you're looking at an average of 0.48 per citizen, with some states presumably exceeding that.

But yeah; I generally agree with the point you're making - the above is just nitpicking.
I'm being conservative with my assessment - I have nothing to prove that 7-10 illegal arms figure except my own personal experiences and anecdotes. It's sort of an unspoken truth here. I live in Delhi which has one of the highest gun rates in the country which likely also introduces bias into my judgement, hence I tried to compensate for that with the lower number!
 
Actually, I suspect the reason is much simpler: there are 1.2 guns per citizen in the US, compared to only 0.06 in India.

Increase the number of privately owned firearms by a factor of 20 (which, in the case of India, would mean handing out 1.4 billion guns) and I bet my ass you're going to start seeing political assassinations.
India is not immune from the threat of political violence. Sure, there have not been assassinations that I can think of. But, the last time I was in Pune (Summer 2018) I can recall our offices closing for 1 day for the safety of employees. There was fear that the protests associated with the Maratha Kranti Morcha movement (oversimplified - protestors seeking job and education quotas in Maharashtra state) could devolve into violence and threaten employees and western visitors. I do recall the orange flag of the movement being quite visible in the days before and after the protest within some parts of the city. To be fair, I recall nothing significant erupting from that protest.
 
India is not immune from the threat of political violence. Sure, there have not been assassinations that I can think of. But, the last time I was in Pune (Summer 2018) I can recall our offices closing for 1 day for the safety of employees. There was fear that the protests associated with the Maratha Kranti Morcha movement (oversimplified - protestors seeking job and education quotas in Maharashtra state) could devolve into violence and threaten employees and western visitors. I do recall the orange flag of the movement being quite visible in the days before and after the protest within some parts of the city. To be fair, I recall nothing significant erupting from that protest.
Yeah, at most we'll have people beating each other up with sticks - but nothing past that. Just some scuffles occasionally, in which people from both sides get injured, and recover from in a week and life goes back to normal. Nobody is specifically targeted and assassinated for their ideology.

This isn't about India though. It's about reversing a worrying trend in America and going to an era where polarisation and violence shrink instead of grow.
 
Whatever 🤷‍♂️ somebody made a martyr out of him when you scroll through social media. The left is cheering and the right is pissed. I'm going to go out on a limb here an predict the shooter is going to be some brainwashed far left socialist/ communist libtard! :mad:
But is this rhetorical statement not part of the problem we are taking about?
  • There are no official announcements about the political orientation of the shooter or the shooter's motivation. Anything that has come out up to this point is unofficial and speculative.
  • Opposite sides of the political spectrum rush to judgement and start bashing the other side, blaming each other, cheering, etc. with no actual formal evidence being presented.
  • People predicting the motivation and affiliation of the shooter and posting that to social media, offering that as explanation or rationale as to why the shooter did what he did.
What if the shooter's motivation was to shoot Kirk to impress Jodie Foster?
 
  • the majority of Americans don't actually care about political shootings as such; they only don't like it when "their" politicians get shot,
  • for the majority of Americans the fact that a political figure got shot matters less than the political affiliation of the shooter.
I don't know about this mindset being a "majority," but when I scroll through both far-left and far-right social media after various events, the posts and comments do support this theory.

Also, I think most of you are missing the bigger picture. Each side cheers and celebrates when something bad happens to a political figure from the other side, while at the same time placing blame for it on the other side within seconds of an event occurring, followed by threats of revenge or retaliation. And when the facts don't match their preconceived notions, then it turns into a conspiracy theory. There are people out there right now claiming that ISRAEL is behind Kirk's murder; that CHINA is behind Kirk's murder; that REPUBLICANS are behind Kirk's murder (in order to influence midterm voting). Are you fucking kidding me?

This violence is going to get worse. It will be perpetuated by members of both the left and right, and the celebrations, blame, and threats of vengeance will continue to get worse as well. I don't like where this is heading, and I do not see an off-ramp here. This country is going to implode, and at the rate things are escalating, it's going to happen within the next year or so.

Finally, I have something to say to both Democrats and Republicans on this forum:

To Republicans: On April 5, 2023, Charlie Kirk stated, "I think it's worth it. I think it's worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the Second Amendment to protect our other God-given rights." If you hold Mr. Kirk in such high regard, then maybe you should apply this statement to his own death. And please stop talking about the shooter as if you know his/her motivations. You are introducing facts not in evidence. Wait for the shooter to be caught and *listen* to what comes out of that.

To Democrats: No matter how strongly you disagree with Mr. Kirk's philosophies, he was engaging in his Constitutionally-protected right of free speech. No one should be killed for that. In fact, I hold a small admiration for his method of open debate in a public setting. He was also a husband and the father of a three year-old daughter and a one year-old son. Do his wife and children deserve this emotional trauma?

Premeditated murder is wrong, regardless of the reasons. It's legally wrong; it's morally wrong; it's ethically wrong; it's theologically wrong; it's politically wrong. To celebrate a premeditated murder is morally repugnant, and those of you doing so - privately or publicly - seriously need to reexamine your values and what that says about you as a person.

Yet, here we are. If I were you - and this is just a suggestion - I would stop focusing on Mr. Kirk and his shooter, and I would start worrying about where this is going and how it defines us as a country. That being said, I know better. Nothing I say is going to sway anyone on either side. We are too far gone for that. So, those of us who are moderate centrists, we're just going to sit on the sidelines and observe while conservatives and liberals continue to kill each other. This isn't our fight, so we're not participating. We're also not celebrating. This is heralding the destruction of the United States from within, and no one should be celebrating that.

If you're part of the celebration/retribution crowd, you should all be ashamed of yourselves.
 
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Well this comment from the nation's leader is divisive and does not help. It implicitly justifies right-wing radicalism while attacking left-wing radicalism by falling back on arguments about political position. "My side is right, therefore their actions are more justified. The other side is wrong, therefore they are bad."
 
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I don't know about this mindset being a "majority," but when I scroll through both far-left and far-right social media after various events, the posts and comments do support this theory.

Also, I think most of you are missing the bigger picture. Each side cheers and celebrates when something bad happens to a political figure from the other side, while at the same time placing blame for it on the other side within seconds of an event occurring, followed by threats of revenge or retaliation. And when the facts don't match their preconceived notions, then it turns into a conspiracy theory. There are people out there right now claiming that ISRAEL is behind Kirk's murder; that CHINA is behind Kirk's murder; that REPUBLICANS are behind Kirk's murder (in order to influence midterm voting). Are you fucking kidding me?

This violence is going to get worse. It will be perpetuated by members of both the left and right, and the celebrations, blame, and threats of vengeance will continue to get worse as well. I don't like where this is heading, and I do not see an off-ramp here. This country is going to implode, and at the rate things are escalating, it's going to happen within the next year or so.

Finally, I have something to say to both Democrats and Republicans on this forum:

To Republicans: On April 5, 2023, Charlie Kirk stated, "I think it's worth it. I think it's worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the Second Amendment to protect our other God-given rights." If you hold Mr. Kirk in such high regard, then maybe you should apply this statement to his own death. And please stop talking about the shooter as if you know his/her motivations. You are introducing facts not in evidence. Wait for the shooter to be caught and *listen* to what comes out of that.

To Democrats: No matter how strongly you disagree with Mr. Kirk's philosophies, he was engaging in his Constitutionally-protected right of free speech. No one should be killed for that. In fact, I hold a small admiration for his method of open debate in a public setting. He was also a husband and the father of a three year-old daughter and a one year-old son. Do his wife and children deserve this emotional trauma?

Premeditated murder is wrong, regardless of the reasons. It's legally wrong; it's morally wrong; it's ethically wrong; it's theologically wrong; it's politically wrong. To celebrate a premeditated murder is morally repugnant, and those of you doing so - privately or publicly - seriously need to reexamine your values and what that says about you as a person.

Yet, here we are. If I were you - and this is just a suggestion - I would stop focusing on Mr. Kirk and his shooter, and I would start worrying about where this is going and how it defines us as a country. That being said, I know better. Nothing I say is going to sway anyone on either side. We are too far gone for that. So, those of us who are moderate centrists, we're just going to sit on the sidelines and observe while conservatives and liberals continue to kill each other. This isn't our fight, so we're not participating. We're also not celebrating. This is heralding the destruction of the United States from within, and no one should be celebrating that.

You should all be ashamed of yourselves.
You found the words I was looking for. Great post.
 
You should all be ashamed of yourselves.
I was in near total agreement with your argument up to this statement. Many of us are trying to avoid a rush to judgment, are genuinely concerned about the increasing violent polarization of American politics, express that concern calmly and rationally, and highlight more extreme positions when we see it. For us "all" to be ashamed seems like a broad generalization we need to avoid in this type of rhetoric and definitely seems like an overreach.
 
I was in near total agreement with your argument up to this statement. Many of us are trying to avoid a rush to judgment, are genuinely concerned about the increasing violent polarization of American politics, express that concern calmly and rationally, and highlight more extreme positions when we see it. For us "all" to be ashamed seems like a broad generalization we need to avoid in this type of rhetoric and definitely seems like an overreach.
I was referring to the people engaging in the behavior I was addressing, but I could have phrased it better. Made a quick edit.
 
I was referring to the people engaging in the behavior I was addressing, but I could have phrased it better.
Gotcha & understood.

And I am no angel. I do hold (and have expressed) positions that could fall closer to the extreme of an ideology. I vote, and I either find myself on the winning side or losing side. If I am on either side, I move on. I express my opinion in debate. It is either accepted, rejected, or ignored. I move on with life and thank my lucky stars every day that I live in a country where I can vote and express my opinion safely, generally without reprisal. Even if an idea of mine loses in a vote or in the arena of ideas, it's not the end of the world and I can still live a safe, secure, and relatively free life.
 
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I don't know about this mindset being a "majority," but when I scroll through both far-left and far-right social media after various events, the posts and comments do support this theory.

Also, I think most of you are missing the bigger picture. Each side cheers and celebrates when something bad happens to a political figure from the other side, while at the same time placing blame for it on the other side within seconds of an event occurring, followed by threats of revenge or retaliation. And when the facts don't match their preconceived notions, then it turns into a conspiracy theory. There are people out there right now claiming that ISRAEL is behind Kirk's murder; that CHINA is behind Kirk's murder; that REPUBLICANS are behind Kirk's murder (in order to influence midterm voting). Are you fucking kidding me?

This violence is going to get worse. It will be perpetuated by members of both the left and right, and the celebrations, blame, and threats of vengeance will continue to get worse as well. I don't like where this is heading, and I do not see an off-ramp here. This country is going to implode, and at the rate things are escalating, it's going to happen within the next year or so.

Finally, I have something to say to both Democrats and Republicans on this forum:

To Republicans: On April 5, 2023, Charlie Kirk stated, "I think it's worth it. I think it's worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the Second Amendment to protect our other God-given rights." If you hold Mr. Kirk in such high regard, then maybe you should apply this statement to his own death. And please stop talking about the shooter as if you know his/her motivations. You are introducing facts not in evidence. Wait for the shooter to be caught and *listen* to what comes out of that.

To Democrats: No matter how strongly you disagree with Mr. Kirk's philosophies, he was engaging in his Constitutionally-protected right of free speech. No one should be killed for that. In fact, I hold a small admiration for his method of open debate in a public setting. He was also a husband and the father of a three year-old daughter and a one year-old son. Do his wife and children deserve this emotional trauma?

Premeditated murder is wrong, regardless of the reasons. It's legally wrong; it's morally wrong; it's ethically wrong; it's theologically wrong; it's politically wrong. To celebrate a premeditated murder is morally repugnant, and those of you doing so - privately or publicly - seriously need to reexamine your values and what that says about you as a person.

Yet, here we are. If I were you - and this is just a suggestion - I would stop focusing on Mr. Kirk and his shooter, and I would start worrying about where this is going and how it defines us as a country. That being said, I know better. Nothing I say is going to sway anyone on either side. We are too far gone for that. So, those of us who are moderate centrists, we're just going to sit on the sidelines and observe while conservatives and liberals continue to kill each other. This isn't our fight, so we're not participating. We're also not celebrating. This is heralding the destruction of the United States from within, and no one should be celebrating that.

If you're part of the celebration/retribution crowd, you should all be ashamed of yourselves.
This is an excellent post - except for that last paragraph, which appears to juxtapose "liberals" and "centrists". To me personally, the two terms are synonymous - or at least I've always identified as a liberal and as a centrist.

Seems to me that by saying "centrists" you actually mean "symmetrists" - and that's not the same thing.

But otherwise - great job, and I generally agree with every point made.
 
I don't think this statement is appropriate for the political atmosphere in America right now. Fuels division instead of uniting the country.
Trump is the first president in America's history who isn't even pretending that he wants to try and unite the nation. To him - as to every autocrat - the worst enemy is the internal one.

America is undergoing a fundamental political transformation - and, like most people who live in revolutionary times, Americans generally fail to recognize that the times are, in fact, revolutionary.
 
In a couple days' time none of this will matter, and people will struggle to remember who either of those guys was.
 
This is an excellent post - except for that last paragraph, which appears to juxtapose "liberals" and "centrists". To me personally, the two terms are synonymous - or at least I've always identified as a liberal and as a centrist.

Seems to me that by saying "centrists" you actually mean "symmetrists" - and that's not the same thing.

But otherwise - great job, and I generally agree with every point made.
I had to look up the meaning of "symmetrist" as applied to the political spectrum, and I'm not sure I agree with how you're using it.

The way I understand it, if you are classifying yourself as a "liberal centrist," what you actually mean is "moderate liberal," meaning you lean left, but not far left. However, if you are far enough left that you disagree with anything conservative, then you are most definitely not a centrist.

As a "moderate centrist," I agree with some moderate liberal philosophies and some moderate conservative philosophies. However, I disagree with the extremism of both the far-left and far-right. For instance, I am a firm believer in the Second Amendment (conservative). However, I also recognize that the phrase "well-regulated" is part of the Second Amendment, so I therefore support some very basic, common sense laws on gun ownership (liberal). I also support basic universal health care (liberal), but if the wealthy want so-called "Cadillac plans" through private insurance companies, I see no reason to interfere with that (conservative).

I don't know if we're talking about the same thing and just using different terminology, but I hope my explanation cleared it up.
 
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