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UA-RU-NATO | DISCUSSIONS

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DEFCON Warning System said:
This is an ongoing debate.

You bring up a good point, but what about the danger if Russia wins?
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Russia will not allow itself to lose. I think this is well established. The strategy employed by NATO is barely working in my view. It’s a reactionary solution to a problem that requires being proactive. If NATO keeps throwing more money and guns at it, maybe Russia will fold, right? I think people are missing exactly what is happening here…

The US is leaving itself dangerously exposed. This is a coordinated effort by the new Axis to slowly drain NATO resources. A small Komodo dragon just needs one little bite on the heel of a water Buffalo in order to cause it to slowly die from within.

Now…you take more bites and more little nibbles out of NATO, eventually a weakness will pop up. That is when China will attack Taiwan. Can NATO run a war against China, and Russia simultaneously, after already having munitions drained?

The US needs to stop giving in to Ukraine’s demands. Other NATO nations need to start paying their fair share. I think if the United States cuts off aid to Ukraine completely, Zelensky will be forced to negotiate with Russia to end hostilities. I think this is what Trump means by “End the war in 24 hours.”

Interesting how we just keep the war going as long as we can, isn’t it? No one seems to want to just mutually end it, it’s one side or nothing. This is why I don’t support the current NATO strategy. I’m not proposing that any side in particular wins. Just that the war stops cold, and a compromise be reached. By calling Putin a war criminal, and sending F-16’s, we aren’t sending a message that we want peace.
 
Spyglass said:
Russia will not allow itself to lose. I think this is well established. The strategy employed by NATO is barely working in my view. It’s a reactionary solution to a problem that requires being proactive. If NATO keeps throwing more money and guns at it, maybe Russia will fold, right? I think people are missing exactly what is happening here…

The US is leaving itself dangerously exposed. This is a coordinated effort by the new Axis to slowly drain NATO resources. A small Komodo dragon just needs one little bite on the heel of a water Buffalo in order to cause it to slowly die from within.

Now…you take more bites and more little nibbles out of NATO, eventually a weakness will pop up. That is when China will attack Taiwan. Can NATO run a war against China, and Russia simultaneously, after already having munitions drained?

The US needs to stop giving in to Ukraine’s demands. Other NATO nations need to start paying their fair share. I think if the United States cuts off aid to Ukraine completely, Zelensky will be forced to negotiate with Russia to end hostilities. I think this is what Trump means by “End the war in 24 hours.”

Interesting how we just keep the war going as long as we can, isn’t it? No one seems to want to just mutually end it, it’s one side or nothing. This is why I don’t support the current NATO strategy. I’m not proposing that any side in particular wins. Just that the war stops cold, and a compromise be reached. By calling Putin a war criminal, and sending F-16’s, we aren’t sending a message that we want peace.
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Forgiven them, they don't know what they are doing!
 
Totality said:
No. At this point imo they want to end Russias genocidal rampage.. finally giving the means for Ukraine to take back every inch and end this pointless war of aggression Putin has stupidly caused.

We cannot give into dictators anymore. Doing so will lead to much worse consequences and it won't end or stop with Ukraine. Postponing the inevitable defeat of Russia in Ukraine will only make things much worse.
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IDK TT, I'm just afraid that if we keep throwing rocks at the weird kid with a gun, he'll eventually shoot us.
 
Saguenay said:
Forgiven them, they don't know what they are doing!
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We know exactly what we are doing now. Finally getting our heads out of our asses and doing something about Putins egregious genocide in Ukraine.

Six said:
IDK TT, I'm just afraid that if we keep throwing rocks at the weird kid with a gun, he'll eventually shoot us.
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I'm more worried what he will do if we let the "weird guy with a gun" do whatever he wants because he threatens to shoot anyone who doesn't do as he pleases.

Bullies or dictators they only learn on the battlefield. The longer this drags out the more risk of nuclear war becomes. We need to help Ukraine end this and quick.
 
Totality said:
I'm more worried what will do if we let the "weird guy with a gun" do whatever he wants because he threatens to shoot anyone who doesn't do as he pleases.

Bullies or dictators they only learn on the battlefield. The longer this drags out the more risk of nuclear war becomes. We need to help Ukraine end this and quick.
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It doesn't matter, it's already too late, Putin will use atomic weapons against USA anyway
 
Totality said:
I'm more worried what he will do if we let the "weird guy with a gun" do whatever he wants because he threatens to shoot anyone who doesn't do as he pleases.

Bullies or dictators they only learn on the battlefield. The longer this drags out the more risk of nuclear war becomes. We need to help Ukraine end this and quick.
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Now on this we agree 100%, I want this to end like five minutes ago. The longer it drags on the greater the chance something truly terrible happens.
 
Peace said:
So WAR because the US cant face losing its hegemony. I will wave a flag as you all are sent to the meat grinder soon. Tell Berlin to expect Russian tanks again soon!
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Russia is never gonna declare war/set the conditions to have NATO directly partecipating to the conflict because they perfectly know that they're already losing against NATO's older/spare tech, that it's been pumping to Ukraine.
They also know that if they get the flanks uncovered, they could be easily facing their fake friend "China" who has historical interests in eastern russian regions.
China and India cannot show this publicly, even because it's in their economical interest to show some kind of support, double face to Russia...but if Russia does something which could disrupt their trade interests to their major market, aka EU, they would send Russia to Mars.
Unless in Russia they want to fight a nuclear war of course....but no...russians can be misinformed, they could have done miscalculations but they're not crazy at the point to risk the butt over the 3 "fuckin" ukraine provinces.
No reason to believe to the russian nor to the western scare/war mongering.
 
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Putin could die tomorrow. Sure we'd probably get a body double for a for weeks, but still...

There's a reason why Putin's minions openly muse about using their nuclear torpedo on the UK coat, etc. It's plausible. Far less plausible is Putin issuing the command to end his country, the US - or both.
 
Totality said:
We know exactly what we are doing now. Finally getting our heads out of our asses and doing something about Putins egregious genocide in Ukraine.


I'm more worried what he will do if we let the "weird guy with a gun" do whatever he wants because he threatens to shoot anyone who doesn't do as he pleases.

Bullies or dictators they only learn on the battlefield. The longer this drags out the more risk of nuclear war becomes. We need to help Ukraine end this and quick.
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How about we help Ukraine end the conflict by no longer enabling it? Keep giving the addict drugs and he will find reasons to use them.
 
Spyglass said:
How about we help Ukraine end the conflict by no longer enabling it? Keep giving the addict drugs and he will find reasons to use them.
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Except the crack head stealing the copper piping in this scenario is Putin and the US enabling began with Georgia.
 
Totality said:
We know exactly what we are doing now. Finally getting our heads out of our asses and doing something about Putins egregious genocide in Ukraine.


I'm more worried what he will do if we let the "weird guy with a gun" do whatever he wants because he threatens to shoot anyone who doesn't do as he pleases.

Bullies or dictators they only learn on the battlefield. The longer this drags out the more risk of nuclear war becomes. We need to help Ukraine end this and quick.
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So other than negotiating, or more specifically how.
You mention stop supplying or limiting weapons to Ukraine.

How do you negotiate a suspension of hostilities with a nation or leader who refuses to lose?
We cut aid and Ukraine can no longer prevent Russia from advancing.
So Russia takes Ukraine and in a few years does the same thing all over again with Moldova.
This is how I see that out come.

You mention the bully with a gun and not knowing what they might do next.

If you let that bully have his way because he’s a nut with a gun you have validated his unpredictable and violent behavior and only encouraged him that it works.
He gets his way because he’s willing to use violence and continually threaten extreme violence directed at everyone.

I just do not see that as a wise or viable plan.
Now to publicly announce a negotiated settlement option where Russia does not have to grovel, sure that is an option. But as you point out the bully is not going to lose. And no matter how reasonable the offer might be to Russia they are I’m afraid going to reject it.

We heard much of the same argument during the Reagan admin and our military build up was going to start a nuclear war.
Absolutely the risk was real. I’m not saying it wasn’t .
But then low and behold the Soviet Union collapsed.
Putin needs to come away with something tangible for a negotiated settlement. But he also can not assume to keep all that he now holds.

What is that mix? I have opinions and expressed them here but I of course can’t know what it would actually be.

If the US just withdraws now all of Ukraine will fall. Moldova will follow and there you go.
That’s not an acceptable either.

So what are the negotiating parameters?
What is acceptable for Russia to relinquish on and what is acceptable for Ukraine to relinquish on.
Or do you just believe all of Ukraine should fall?
 
Spyglass said:
How about we help Ukraine end the conflict by no longer enabling it? Keep giving the addict drugs and he will find reasons to use them.
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Ukraine is a crack head because the have chosen to defend their countries boarders?
If we’re going to make bad analogies how about this one.
Russian leadership are rabid dogs and they just need put down with a sub-sonic 22 playing pinball in their skull
 
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Six said:
Now on this we agree 100%, I want this to end like five minutes ago. The longer it drags on the greater the chance something truly terrible happens.
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Why? I mean people say this like it’s a fact or something.
It could be argued it creates an elevated risk.
But their is no demonstrable proof it is guaranteed to escalate to a nuclear exchange.
60 years of the Cold War.
US in two costly military conflicts with both Russia and China either directly involved with troops and equipment or suppling all of the military means to their proxy country.
There was no nuclear war in over a decade of wars between Korea and Vietnam.
 
Araxen said:
They can't even take out a Patriot system in Ukraine. I"m not too worried about them hitting the US. China on the other hand...
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Oh I think they could hit the US.
But risk nuclear annihilation because that can’t get their way with Ukraine.
Think about it lose in Ukraine and weather through it take the losses.
Maybe their is a change in government.
Maybe not.
Putin and the oligarchs could survive losing or not achieving all of their goals with Ukraine. It would weaken them.

This is where the west needs to not make the settlement debilitating on Russia. They have to have an out but they also can’t hold on to all of the territory they now occupy.
 
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