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UA-RU-NATO War & Ukraine Peace Talks | Discussions

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Socom7 said:
This is what it looks like to everyone outside the US, and to most of the US as well.

Bleed the suckers dry! Keep pumping Ukraine with weapons. Make the Russians pay through the nose - in blood and treasure - for every meaningless village they manage to capture. Keep calm and carry on until at last they are ready for real peace talks rather than this clown act Putin is putting up for Trump's benefit.

It was working, too. The Russian economy is in a tailspin, inflation is out of control, there's a severe workforce shortage (because everyone headed off to war), defense spending is gobbling up the Russian budget, etc. They could not keep this up for a whole lot longer.

But alas, the American public got bored of this little reality TV series and decided not to renew for Season 4. That's your big problem (again, collective "you"): no one thinks long-term anymore; everyone is just looking for their next dose of endorphins. So here we are.
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Ok continue on the same path appreciate the answer.

The number of Ukrainians wanting a settlement is approaching 50%
news.gallup.com

Half of Ukrainians Want Quick, Negotiated End to War

Ukrainians are growing increasingly weary of the war with Russia. Gallup's latest surveys of Ukraine show 52% would like to see the war end as soon as possible.
news.gallup.com news.gallup.com

Fewer than 10% of Europeans see an outright win for Ukraine. Most see some form of compromise ultimate outcome.
www.politico.eu

Most Europeans think Ukraine will lose the war, according to survey

A majority of respondents in Hungary, Greece and Italy want allies to push Kyiv to accept a settlement.
www.politico.eu www.politico.eu

but at least you said what the plan is and I appreciate the commitment.
I don’t see it. Ukraine hasn’t even moved away from the Dniepro river or secured the area south of Kerson to the Black Sea In two years.

Compare the ISW war frontline map with attention to nov 2022 to march 2025 Russia has lost very little ground and looks to control more now than then.

Ukrainian military intelligence est there are close to 620,000 Russian troops in Ukraine.
IMG_0178.webp

www.bbc.com

Ukraine in maps: Tracking the war with Russia

How are Russia and Ukraine placed after three years of fighting and with Donald Trump suggesting talks on ending the war could begin soon?
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com

Ukraine has now been able to enlist 800000 solders so that is an improvment.
But as Torch has mentioned their tactics are for shit and they haven’t driven Russia back to any significant degree. Traditional military doctrine maintains when attacking fortified positions the attacking army needs a 2 to 1 advantage.
With good tactics that can be mitigated to a degree. But they haven’t demonstrated that yet, or simply can’t. Not judging them just a fact.

I am not being a Putin apologist here, just a realist, at least from my perspective.

The good investment argument is not a winnable argument to continuing a war that could possibly be negotiated.
If Putin screws the negotiations which he is likely to do. Then it was at least attempted, that is not a losing effort.

Other than that how long can we foresee the Ukrainian public continue to support the war if it remains a static line for another two years. Then what happens if the Zelinski gov is voted out and Russian centrist wins. It’s all lost then.
 
It isn't really about victory or justice for Ukraine, but like he said, bleeding Russia dry. The west is fighting Russia to the last Ukranian body. Winning for Ukraine is about Ukraine, but winning for NATO isn't about Ukraine itself, it's about restricting Russia's ability to project power and expand its influence.
Is that morally right? Maybe, maybe not. I think you'd need an oracle to know the results to do the math on that one.
But to me, it feels like the plan was just aborted right before the critical point where it would either fail, or succeed. Instead, it has been doomed to only fail, after 3 years of this, making all of those who died for it, in vain.
And that, I think is more wrong than seeing it out to the end. If Russia crushes Ukraine's will to keep participating in this strategy? So be it, that is up to them to eventually surrender. Speeding it up like this though, is not the right play in my opinion, even if it is also up to the US to keep participating.
OReid said:
Ukraine has now been able to enlist 800000 solders so that is an improvment.
But as Torch has mentioned their tactics are for shit and they haven’t driven Russia back to any significant degree. Traditional military doctrine maintains when attacking fortified positions the attacking army needs a 2 to 1 advantage.
With good tactics that can be mitigated to a degree. But they haven’t demonstrated that yet, or simply can’t. Not judging them just a fact.

I am not being a Putin apologist here, just a realist, at least from my perspective.

The good investment argument is not a winnable argument to continuing a war that could possibly be negotiated.
If Putin screws the negotiations which he is likely to do. Then it was at least attempted, that is not a losing effort.

Other than that how long can we foresee the Ukrainian public continue to support the war if it remains a static line for another two years. Then what happens if the Zelinski gov is voted out and Russian centrist wins. It’s all lost then.
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Winnitude said:
It isn't really about victory or justice for Ukraine, but like he said, bleeding Russia dry. The west is fighting Russia to the last Ukranian body. Winning for Ukraine is about Ukraine, but winning for NATO isn't about Ukraine itself, it's about restricting Russia's ability to project power and expand its influence.
Is that morally right? Maybe, maybe not. I think you'd need an oracle to know the results to do the math on that one.
But to me, it feels like the plan was just aborted right before the critical point where it would either fail, or succeed. Instead, it has been doomed to only fail, after 3 years of this, making all of those who died for it, in vain.
And that, I think is more wrong than seeing it out to the end. If Russia crushes Ukraine's will to keep participating in this strategy? So be it, that is up to them to eventually surrender. Speeding it up like this though, is not the right play in my opinion, even if it is also up to the US to keep participating.
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This thing isn’t over till it’s over, if Ukraine doesn’t like the United States’ deal they’ll just keep fighting. The U.S. said they at least want European peacekeepers in Ukraine if Russia doesn’t agree to it, which they probably won’t, then the U.S. won’t sign a deal either. There’s a lot of talk in the media about a deal but we’re a long ways away. Again pay attention to what leaders do not what they say.
 
Winnitude said:
It isn't really about victory or justice for Ukraine, but like he said, bleeding Russia dry. The west is fighting Russia to the last Ukranian body. Winning for Ukraine is about Ukraine, but winning for NATO isn't about Ukraine itself, it's about restricting Russia's ability to project power and expand its influence.
Is that morally right? Maybe, maybe not. I think you'd need an oracle to know the results to do the math on that one.
But to me, it feels like the plan was just aborted right before the critical point where it would either fail, or succeed. Instead, it has been doomed to only fail, after 3 years of this, making all of those who died for it, in vain.
And that, I think is more wrong than seeing it out to the end. If Russia crushes Ukraine's will to keep participating in this strategy? So be it, that is up to them to eventually surrender. Speeding it up like this though, is not the right play in my opinion, even if it is also up to the US to keep participating.
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You know you could be right, I don’t see it that way but I could be wrong.
But IF a real end to the fighting could be found is that not worth exploring.
And if Putin blows it up which he might do. Then there is a renewed moral justification to continuing or even escalating support for Ukraine.
 
Snowfall said:
This thing isn’t over till it’s over, if Ukraine doesn’t like the United States’ deal they’ll just keep fighting. The U.S. said they at least want European peacekeepers in Ukraine if Russia doesn’t agree to it, which they probably won’t, then the U.S. won’t sign a deal either. There’s a lot of talk in the media about a deal but we’re a long ways away. Again pay attention to what leaders do not what they say.
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Pretty much the lay of the land, eu leaders failed again today to agree on commitments. But the US is supposed to unilaterally continue support without question?
 
WOAH! FULL HOUSE IN UKRAINE!!! Combined Strike – Cruise Missiles, Ballistics & Drones• Ukraine is under a full-scale combined attack involving cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, and Geranium drones.• Reports indicate high-speed targets are heading towards Ukrainian military and infrastructure sites.• Nationwide air raid alerts activated. Early Warnings & Launches• Ten Tu-95MS bombers departed for launch sites in Saratov region, per Ukrainian monitoring channels.• Kalibr cruise missiles were launched from the Black Sea, expected to enter Ukrainian airspace within 20-30 minutes.• Kh-101/Kh-555 cruise missiles launched by Tu-95MS strategic bombers were expected to reach Ukraine’s borders by 05:10 - 06:10 Moscow time. Missile Trajectories & Targets• Kalibr missiles recorded in Kherson region, heading towards Odessa.• Another group of Kalibrs directed towards Krivoy Rog.• Reported missile trajectories:• Black Sea → Nikolaev region• Kherson region → Nikolaev region• Kherson region → Krivoy Rog• Dnepropetrovsk region → Kirovograd region Impact & Ongoing Strikes• Explosions reported in Odessa as missiles hit targets.• Missiles spotted over Kharkov and Poltava regions.• Kalibrs flying over Alexandria towards Cherkasy and Poltava regions.• A ballistic missile detected heading towards Mirgorod in the Poltava region.• Several Kalibrs crossed Odessa region, moving towards Vinnytsia and Cherkassy.This is the most significant salvo of 2025 yet.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1897830831831605566
 
DarkNoon said:
President Trump said he would selectively abide by Article 5, which commits the U.S. to defend NATO countries, while a senior official blamed Ukraine itself for the U.S. pause on military and intelligence support ahead of a planned U.S.-Ukraine meeting next week.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1897842138211078425
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This has already been explained so many times that his goal is to scare NATO countries into paying 2+% of gdp on defense. Trump said in the same interview he values NATO he just doesn’t want the U.S. to be the only who has a high defense budget. The fact Europe is suddenly spending the way they are means it’s working.
 
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Snowfall said:
This has already been explained so many times that his goal is to scare NATO countries into paying 2+% of gdp on defense. Trump said in the same interview he values NATO he just doesn’t want the U.S. to be the only who has a high defense budget. The fact Europe is suddenly spending the way they are means it’s working.
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Putin would only attack NATO if it were undermined, looked weak, or lacked unity which is exactly what Trump is doing to NATO by weakening alliances and casting doubt on U.S. commitments. Undermining NATO doesn't prevent war, it invites it.

There are other ways to address funding issues without acting like a 12-year-old child throwing a fit and burning bridges like malevolent children which are unlikely ever to be mended, even after Trump.
 
DarkNoon said:
🤮

Putin would only attack NATO if it were undermined, looked weak, or lacked unity which is exactly what Trump is doing to NATO by weakening alliances and casting doubt on U.S. commitments. Undermining NATO doesn't prevent war, it invites it.

There are other ways to address funding issues without acting like a 12-year-old child throwing a fit and burning bridges like malevolent children which are unlikely ever to be mended, even after Trump.
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It’s not even worth having the discussion with you because you hate Trump so much you don’t even recognize the benefit to Europe of them developing their own defense industry. Because Trump is the one that got them to do it everyone acts like it’s a bad thing. You want a strong NATO? Don’t make your entire alliance reliant on one member.
 
DN =TUNNEL VISION.
Others here still suffer western reports about Russia.
Study Russia and history more.
Study their wars before Ukraine.
Study their efforts in ww2.
Economically Russia is alive.
Militarily Russia has the heart and determination to carry on regardless of western reports.
Russia has the second largest army to this day with boots 1.5 million. Second to China 2.38 million. Putin has proven so many wrong in several ways.
Mad man with nukes over 2 decades = wrong. History proves it. The timeline alone.
Putin wants the whole of Ukraine as Russia = wrong history proves it. The timeline alone.
Putin wants all of Baltics and or Europe = wrong. History proves it. The timeline alone.
Putin reminds the west it's a nuclear power no different to Macron doing the same yet both perceived as threats unnecessarily headlined by western media reports.
Inflated egos by the west have achieved very little for Ukraine and more loss than gain. Inflated egos by the west have done little damage to Russia in reality as Russia still holds ukrainian territory and has more than enough boots and equipment for such purpose even at this timeline of conflict of which the west at the beginning wouldn't have believed back then.
Sanctions against Russia achieving very little affects as new clients obtained for trade to replace losses,some of which are bigger gains than previous trading partners.
Putin has always been publicly open with his desire to avoid conflict with nato . Not because of fear. Simply because it isn't and shouldn't ever be necessary.
Unprovoked war against Russia
is obviously a straight up lie.
This evidence is still available from western media reports globally back in 2014 and previous. As I've stated previously.
Netanyahu comments and concerns on nazi activities in said contested areas.
Time magazine.
American media reports CNN etc.
European media reports.
Film of Zelinski telling Ukrainian nazi’s to stop attacking Russian people in said contested areas like Crimea, Donbass , Donestk etc. Why ? Because he won his election on the promise of peace yrs before Russia moved.
Nazi’s threatened him on camera and that combined with western money and weapons supplied to continue the atrocities swayed him. At the start he signed a peace agreement with Putin to stop conflict but Boris stopped that. Several peace deal attempts made that the West interference has kept this conflict going.
The west made Zelinski a poster boy and he fell for it as any actor-comedian would. Spotlight on him. The west are drinking their own cool aid. The west will be truly challenged and publicly obvious inside of a decade. Possibly 2-3 yrs .
Let's revisit western empire then to check confidence levels of success and global dominance.
Things are rapidly changing in many areas globally and unfortunately many don't or won't see it until it is too late.
Say and or think now what you will. React as you wish. I'm confident enough the challenges coming will be very significant to the point of rehashing my opinion as a reminder in the future. Of course as long as it is possible to do so ? Eg. Nuclear war may affect that should it take us all by surprise. Hopefully future conflicts remain conventional.
 
DarkNoon said:
❗ Trump is considering withdrawing thousands of US troops from Germany and redeploying them to Hungary.

Note: It is understood that trump is considering redeploying personnel to hungary, which has maintained a close relationship with ruzzia..
https://twitter.com/x/status/1898095977673712085

#TrumpRussianPuppet
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Hungary a Electoral Autocracy, guess dictators stick together. Trumps other butt buddy beside Putin, Obon.
 
DarkNoon said:
↕️🤮
Trump speaks with understanding about Putin's bombing of Ukraine and expresses dissatisfaction with Ukrainian non-constructiveness. All this an hour after the threats against Russia.
https://twitter.com/x/status/1898108381300142335
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Well, to paraphrase a US government official - that's sort of like hitting a mule with a two by four across the nose. You get their attention.

America is nothing if not an obedient mule. 😁
 
DarkNoon said:
Kremlin rejects possibility of compromise and refuses to discuss ceasefire.

Is General Kellogg going to hit Putin “over the head with a two by four like a mule” as he alluded to Zelensky?.
https://twitter.com/x/status/1898013305085575357
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No; what happened over the past 24h is Putin hitting Trump over the head with a two by four like a mule.

The manner in which the USA allows itself to be b****slapped by the Kremlin can't be described as anything other than BDSM, and of the CNC variety. 🤣

PS. Discussion thread is locked, so move this to wherever. 💁‍♂️
 
OReid said:
It seems the leaders of Britain France Germany and others also do not see a winnable war for Ukraine.
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It is winnable or for Ukraine to get a fair shake.

It's not currently because Trump refuses to stand up to Putin and is entirely appeasing Putin to accomplish "peace".

Which is only kicking the can down the road, further emboldening Putin, and only raising the stakes of a greater war down the road which is all appeasement does.
 
DarkNoon said:
It is winnable. It's not because Trump refuses to stand up to Putin and is entirely appeasing Putin to accomplish it.
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That’s an opinion that it’s not shared it seems with the London Paris or Berlin governments
 
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