• Guests may view all public nodes. However, you must be registered to post.

UA-RU-NATO War & Ukraine Peace Talks | Discussions

Status
Not open for further replies.
OReid said:
I just listened to a statement by Hegseth, nato membership is out. That said it does not diminish the need for Ukrainian security. This can be accomplished by a collection of European and non European peacekeepers in Ukraine to provide that guarantee. While at same time eliminating the nato article 5 conundrum.
So this in no way looking like an abandonment of Ukraine.
Click to expand...
I think the other thing to keep in mind is these negotiations are just beginning. They might not even reach a deal considering some of Putin’s stated goals amount to the literal destruction of ukranian sovereignty. At the same time the Trump administration sounds like they want to keep ukraines military in place as well as other things the Russians have said they would not accept. Starting a discussion is the easy part, reaching a ceasefire let alone a peace treaty will not be.
At the start of this war many of us legitimately thought the government of Ukraine would be dead within a week. The fact Ukraine has survived to this point and done the damage they have done is an incredible feat and under no circumstances can I see the White House effectively negotiating them out of existence nor would the Ukranians stop fighting if that agreement happened.
 
Snowfall said:
I think the other thing to keep in mind is these negotiations are just beginning. They might not even reach a deal considering some of Putin’s stated goals amount to the literal destruction of ukranian sovereignty. At the same time the Trump administration sounds like they want to keep ukraines military in place as well as other things the Russians have said they would not accept. Starting a discussion is the easy part, reaching a ceasefire let alone a peace treaty will not be.
At the start of this war many of us legitimately thought the government of Ukraine would be dead within a week. The fact Ukraine has survived to this point and done the damage they have done is an incredible feat and under no circumstances can I see the White House effectively negotiating them out of existence nor would the Ukranians stop fighting if that agreement happened.
Click to expand...
I can completely acknowledge that any negotiations could fall flat on their face. And we will cross that bridge if it happens. My only point is that dooming and glooming that this is a catastrophic development is overstated. NATO and the US’s plan and actions thus far have sustained Ukraine at great cost. But there has been no plan to win the war and that reality with or without Trump was not going to change within the nato organization.

So we can refuse to look for a cessation to the fighting and stumble on as we have or we can be honest and look for a solution.

Call me a traitor or quitter or whatever. But if so what is the plan that western gov are actually going to implement that will win this fight? And the blame for not doing so cannot be laid at trumps feet. Because the previous admin and nato leadership also did not enact one either so again there is no reason to expect a change now.
 
In my opinion, if the war stops, Ukraine will have to give up the territories conquered by Russia, there will be elections in Ukraine and it will be
a Pro-Russian government, Trump will turn a blind eye, so he will be able to say that he made peace. So, all these deaths for nothing.
 
GBS61 said:
In my opinion, if the war stops, Ukraine will have to give up the territories conquered by Russia, there will be elections in Ukraine and it will be
a Pro-Russian government, Trump will turn a blind eye, so he will be able to say that he made peace. So, all these deaths for nothing.
Click to expand...
If/when there’s an election in Ukraine I think we can all safely assume they are not electing a pro-Russian president. Nor would any western government accept that.
 
I wouldnt be so gloomy, yes Russia gets some soil, but can it affort to build it up again? ( with the current lending prices ) and will it be able to hold on to it if it collapses?
Their War economy will take years to rebuild what was lost. And I think even if they stopped it right away, it will still suffer.
A cease fire will get Russians to think about other stuff, Putin is getting older and has no heir.

Yes, Ukraine might get another elected goverment, but will it change again after Putin is dead, most likely.

Europe will have the time to prepare and build up their own military for a future conflict, ( 2 years might not be enough, but strong enough to keep Russia at bay ) I only dread that they become so strong that they might not need USAs help any longer, ( I see a scenario with history repeating with nationalism or power hungry EU for resources ) and plays the same scenario if the USA gets in a pacific conflict.

Also if China can see what price Russia has paid, what msg will that send to China if they begin a conflict for Taiwan or Chinese South Sea. - Yes they might conquer it, but will the regime collapse afterwards? ( I know people think it might encourage other autocrat systems to take the same route - I am not 100% convinced about it )

But we will see how it pans out.
 
Last edited:
OReid said:
I just listened to a statement by Hegseth, nato membership is out. That said it does not diminish the need for Ukrainian security. This can be accomplished by a collection of European and non European peacekeepers in Ukraine to provide that guarantee. While at same time eliminating the nato article 5 conundrum.
So this in no way looking like an abandonment of Ukraine.
Click to expand...
Even if we strong armed and bribed about 5 NATO members to allow the Ukraine to join, IMO there was no way we would ever get Hungary or Turkey agree to a military response to an Article 5 request from Kiev. So it’s not abandonment not to give something to the Ukraine that they never had and were never promised. Its a simple decision.
 
GBS61 said:
In my opinion, if the war stops, Ukraine will have to give up the territories conquered by Russia, there will be elections in Ukraine and it will be
a Pro-Russian government, Trump will turn a blind eye, so he will be able to say that he made peace. So, all these deaths for nothing.
Click to expand...
Most the deaths in war are almost always for nothing. Usually the bulk of the fighting and dying in war seems to occur long after the decision point. Ie WW2 after Stalingrad and the
even the D-day or GWOT: Afghanistan following the killing of Osama bin Laden or GWOT: Iraq, 10 seconds after Hussain was captured.

War sucks, good people die and the wrong people get rich. But sometimes the destination is worth the toll such as WW2 or the US Civil War. The first which assigned guilt for individual actions, and the second finally outlawed slavery, amongst all major world powers, forever.
 
Torch said:
Even if we strong armed and bribed about 5 NATO members to allow the Ukraine to join, IMO there was no way we would ever get Hungary or Turkey agree to a military response to an Article 5 request from Kiev. So it’s not abandonment not to give something to the Ukraine that they never had and were never promised. It’s a simple decision.
Click to expand...
Bingo and I’d rather have Ukraine not in NATO then deal with the ramifications of Article 5 not being invoked when it should be.
 
Very confused to how JD Vance is parroting common Russian talking points about Europe about its decline at the speech, but at the same time threatening with military action.
 
Cilvilt_beredskap said:
Very confused to how JD Vance is parroting common Russian talking points about Europe about its decline at the speech, but at the same time threatening with military action.
Click to expand...
This is the clown 🎪 the far right wanted. The humiliation and dismantlement of the western alliance. Almost seems they become the party of Putin pleasers or just out right stupid/gullable enough to fall for Putins entirely empty red lines or threats, not sure which is worst. Very tragic for America, her allies, and freinds.
 
Last edited:
DarkNoon said:
All because of one man. Trump.
Click to expand...
It’s not just awesome. It’s super awesome!

And yes, this is what 151 (more or less) million Americans want as well.

You don’t get it and that’s ok. No body is perfect, we take Trump, crazy ass comments, convictions and indictments. He’s is doing outstanding work.
 
Snowfall said:
The agreement hasn’t even come out yet. All they did was state was the Biden administration and the European leaders have been saying for at least a year. Also judging by the amount of discussion Trump and his aids have had with Ukraine in the past weeks I have a feeling there’s a lot more than meets the eye behind the scenes otherwise I’m sure the Ukranian reaction would be much harsher than it is.
Click to expand...
Probably because Ukraine and Zelinski have no idea what's happening 😉.
 
Yingyang said:
Probably because Ukraine and Zelinski have no idea what's happening 😉.
Click to expand...
I can guarantee Ukraine and Zelenskyy have a much better idea of what’s going on than the rest of getting information from the news. If they didn’t and felt like they were being excluded I’m sure they would make it well known.
 
Snowfall said:
I can guarantee Ukraine and Zelenskyy have a much better idea of what’s going on than the rest of getting information from the news. If they didn’t and felt like they were being excluded I’m sure they would make it well known.
Click to expand...
The west have a long history of working behind the scenes rather well at the current times. Only for the obvious to rear itself at later dates. Plenty of Western participants not currently happy with Zelinski and Ukraine for many reasons. Missing money in the millions is a great influence for quietly changing the situation without Zelinski 's knowledge or Ukraine aswell.
Many pissed off people who truly don't give a shit about Ukraine and Zelinski poured lots of cash into a bottomless pit without realising. Zelinski will absolutely be removed from his position not by Russia as much.
Most likely by the west. All they need to do is allow an election for the Ukrainian population to sort Zelinski out. 😉
 
@DarkNoon i wouldn't be too negative, afterall you may get the opportunity to meet him face to face and shake his hand, should he decide to become a local. If not than on one of his holidays. I mean you are around Florida aren't you.😉
Or your not aware of his global property purchases?
 
Snowfall said:
I can guarantee Ukraine and Zelenskyy have a much better idea of what’s going on than the rest of getting information from the news. If they didn’t and felt like they were being excluded I’m sure they would make it well known.
Click to expand...
Both of your statements are not mutually exclusive. The Ukraine could know more a lot more in fact than we do because we don’t know Jack.

Congratulations you’re both right!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom